Issue with Post completion work - still not on Land Reg Title Register

dimple_pie

Six months from completion, following our cash purchase of a freehold property, and we’re still not on the title register. 

Land Reg have raised a couple of what can only be considered routine enquiries in respect of a requisition. In order to answer the requisition our solicitors need the assistance of the vendors’ solicitor. In turn the vendors’ solicitor need info from “Target” which I believe is in respect of our sellers’ equity mortgage (Govt “help to buy” scheme). Our solicitors have said that Target are notoriously difficult to extract information from.

We’re literally getting nowhere. Application is about to lapse with the Land Reg - which means I believe that we have no formal legal claim on the property. 

Am I out of order in commencing a complaint ? If I don’t go through the formal complaints process with our solicitor then I can’t take it to the Ombudsman. 

I’m going to also ask our solicitor to register an unilateral restriction against the sellers’ title.

Is there anything else we should be doing ? It’s really frustrating as the issues raised under the LR requisition are really routine conveyancing matters.

user1977

Are you saying you want to complain about your own solicitors? What do you think they've done wrong? It's not clear they have, from what you've told us. 

dimple_pie

user1977 said:

Are you saying you want to complain about your own solicitors? What do you think they've done wrong? It's not clear they have, from what you've told us. 

Yes I can’t take it to the Ombudsman without first raising a complaint. They’ve failed to attend to the registration - haven’t gained the co-operation of the vendors’ solicitors which is surely their job ? They have an obligation to complete the conveyancing.
I simply don’t know what other avenues of address I’ve got. 

Tiglet2

The legal interests of the applicant (i.e. you) are protected from the moment HM Land Registry receives the application, not when they process it, regardless of how long it then takes to complete.  Therefore you do have a legal claim on the property.

Your solicitor will need to continually renew their OS1 application and respond to any requisitions received by the date stated on the requisition to prevent the Land Registry from cancelling the application.

If you are not selling or remortgaging the property then Land Registry will not expedite the application because there is no pending transaction depending on the updated title.  In other words as far as LR are concerned, your application is not a priority.

You are probably aware that there are huge backlogs at Land Registry, not so much with already registered transfers of whole title, but certainly with other more complex titles, such as first registrations or transfers of part.

I imagine that the issue might be that Target have not yet removed their charge on the title and therefore the title cannot be updated until they do that first.  This is not something that could have been done until after completion as the monies from the sale would have been needed to redeem the HTB equity loan.

You can complain, but I am not sure what good it will do.  Your solicitor is waiting for the seller's solicitor to assist/provide documentation (from Target?) and Land Registry cannot update the title until Target/seller's solicitor have done their bit.  Since you can only complain about your solicitor and not the sellers' solicitor, I cannot see that your solicitor is at fault here.

user1977

dimple_pie said:

user1977 said:

Are you saying you want to complain about your own solicitors? What do you think they've done wrong? It's not clear they have, from what you've told us. 

Yes I can’t take it to the Ombudsman without first raising a complaint. They’ve failed to attend to the registration - haven’t gained the co-operation of the vendors’ solicitors which is surely their job ? They have an obligation to complete the conveyancing.
I simply don’t know what other avenues of address I’ve got. 

The vendors solicitors failing (or being unable) to adhere to (presumably) an undertaking they gave at completion doesn't mean there's any failing on the part of your solicitors.

I think we need more information to know exactly where any blame lies. I'll let others answer in relation to what ought to be registered in the meantime, but my understanding is that priority searches are normally renewed in order to protect your position in this sort of situation. You don't cease to own the property. 

dimple_pie

Tiglet2 said:

The legal interests of the applicant (i.e. you) are protected from the moment HM Land Registry receives the application, not when they process it, regardless of how long it then takes to complete.  Therefore you do have a legal claim on the property.

Your solicitor will need to continually renew their OS1 application and respond to any requisitions received by the date stated on the requisition to prevent the Land Registry from cancelling the application.

If you are not selling or remortgaging the property then Land Registry will not expedite the application because there is no pending transaction depending on the updated title.  In other words as far as LR are concerned, your application is not a priority.

You are probably aware that there are huge backlogs at Land Registry, not so much with already registered transfers of whole title, but certainly with other more complex titles, such as first registrations or transfers of part.

I imagine that the issue might be that Target have not yet removed their charge on the title and therefore the title cannot be updated until they do that first.  This is not something that could have been done until after completion as the monies from the sale would have been needed to redeem the HTB equity loan.

You can complain, but I am not sure what good it will do.  Your solicitor is waiting for the seller's solicitor to assist/provide documentation (from Target?) and Land Registry cannot update the title until Target/seller's solicitor have done their bit.  Since you can only complain about your solicitor and not the sellers' solicitor, I cannot see that your solicitor is at fault here.

Thanks for the reply. The application is due to be cancelled in two days time due to the failure to respond to their requisition. I’ve asked our solicitors to attempt to delay cancellation. 

My understanding is that if the LR cancel the application then we don’t have any claim on the property. 

The issues no doubt lie with the sellers’ solicitors in that they’ve not been able to obtain confirmation from Target that their charge is removed. LR have also requested a better copy of the seller’s transfer form which, to date, our solicitors have not obtained from the sellers’ solicitors.
I really don’t think Land Reg delays are relevant - the issues are with the solicitors. Our solicitor needs to be ‘encouraged’ to ‘lean on’ the sellers’ solicitor. 

As you correctly state I can’t complain about the sellers’ solicitors as I’m not their client.
So am I to accept that this may never be resolved ? As the buyer we must have some point of redress surely ? I can only think that’s the Ombudsman but I need to start a formal complaint first.
I asked our solicitors to escalate the matter with the sellers’ solicitor. They said they would but it appears now they haven’t despite saying it would be escalated to partner level.

housebuyer143

dimple_pie said:

Tiglet2 said:

The legal interests of the applicant (i.e. you) are protected from the moment HM Land Registry receives the application, not when they process it, regardless of how long it then takes to complete.  Therefore you do have a legal claim on the property.

Your solicitor will need to continually renew their OS1 application and respond to any requisitions received by the date stated on the requisition to prevent the Land Registry from cancelling the application.

If you are not selling or remortgaging the property then Land Registry will not expedite the application because there is no pending transaction depending on the updated title.  In other words as far as LR are concerned, your application is not a priority.

You are probably aware that there are huge backlogs at Land Registry, not so much with already registered transfers of whole title, but certainly with other more complex titles, such as first registrations or transfers of part.

I imagine that the issue might be that Target have not yet removed their charge on the title and therefore the title cannot be updated until they do that first.  This is not something that could have been done until after completion as the monies from the sale would have been needed to redeem the HTB equity loan.

You can complain, but I am not sure what good it will do.  Your solicitor is waiting for the seller's solicitor to assist/provide documentation (from Target?) and Land Registry cannot update the title until Target/seller's solicitor have done their bit.  Since you can only complain about your solicitor and not the sellers' solicitor, I cannot see that your solicitor is at fault here.

Thanks for the reply. The application is due to be cancelled in two days time due to the failure to respond to their requisition. I’ve asked our solicitors to attempt to delay cancellation. 

My understanding is that if the LR cancel the application then we don’t have any claim on the property. 

The issues no doubt lie with the sellers’ solicitors in that they’ve not been able to obtain confirmation from Target that their charge is removed. LR have also requested a better copy of the seller’s transfer form which, to date, our solicitors have not obtained from the sellers’ solicitors.
I really don’t think Land Reg delays are relevant - the issues are with the solicitors. Our solicitor needs to be ‘encouraged’ to ‘lean on’ the sellers’ solicitor. 

As you correctly state I can’t complain about the sellers’ solicitors as I’m not their client.
So am I to accept that this may never be resolved ? As the buyer we must have some point of redress surely ? I can only think that’s the Ombudsman but I need to start a formal complaint first.
I asked our solicitors to escalate the matter with the sellers’ solicitor. They said they would but it appears now they haven’t despite saying it would be escalated to partner level.

Yes, complain. Your solicitor has a responsibility to ensure your transfer is registered. They might not be able to directly do it but they are nevertheless responsible for sorting this or at least ensuring things are progressing. 
I have seen posts on here of people finding out 2 years down the line the property isn't registered due to failings to sort the requisitions. Should you need to sell urgently for some reason you should be able to but at it stands, you have no ability to until this is resolved. Put pressure on your solicitor. 

user1977

dimple_pie said:

Tiglet2 said:

The legal interests of the applicant (i.e. you) are protected from the moment HM Land Registry receives the application, not when they process it, regardless of how long it then takes to complete.  Therefore you do have a legal claim on the property.

Your solicitor will need to continually renew their OS1 application and respond to any requisitions received by the date stated on the requisition to prevent the Land Registry from cancelling the application.

If you are not selling or remortgaging the property then Land Registry will not expedite the application because there is no pending transaction depending on the updated title.  In other words as far as LR are concerned, your application is not a priority.

You are probably aware that there are huge backlogs at Land Registry, not so much with already registered transfers of whole title, but certainly with other more complex titles, such as first registrations or transfers of part.

I imagine that the issue might be that Target have not yet removed their charge on the title and therefore the title cannot be updated until they do that first.  This is not something that could have been done until after completion as the monies from the sale would have been needed to redeem the HTB equity loan.

You can complain, but I am not sure what good it will do.  Your solicitor is waiting for the seller's solicitor to assist/provide documentation (from Target?) and Land Registry cannot update the title until Target/seller's solicitor have done their bit.  Since you can only complain about your solicitor and not the sellers' solicitor, I cannot see that your solicitor is at fault here

My understanding is that if the LR cancel the application then we don’t have any claim on the property. 

Where are you getting that understanding from? I think you’ve misinterpreted something along the way. You have a contract with the vendor, that doesn’t disappear just because there are issues with your land registry application.

TBG01

dimple_pie said:

Tiglet2 said:

The legal interests of the applicant (i.e. you) are protected from the moment HM Land Registry receives the application, not when they process it, regardless of how long it then takes to complete.  Therefore you do have a legal claim on the property.

Your solicitor will need to continually renew their OS1 application and respond to any requisitions received by the date stated on the requisition to prevent the Land Registry from cancelling the application.

If you are not selling or remortgaging the property then Land Registry will not expedite the application because there is no pending transaction depending on the updated title.  In other words as far as LR are concerned, your application is not a priority.

You are probably aware that there are huge backlogs at Land Registry, not so much with already registered transfers of whole title, but certainly with other more complex titles, such as first registrations or transfers of part.

I imagine that the issue might be that Target have not yet removed their charge on the title and therefore the title cannot be updated until they do that first.  This is not something that could have been done until after completion as the monies from the sale would have been needed to redeem the HTB equity loan.

You can complain, but I am not sure what good it will do.  Your solicitor is waiting for the seller's solicitor to assist/provide documentation (from Target?) and Land Registry cannot update the title until Target/seller's solicitor have done their bit.  Since you can only complain about your solicitor and not the sellers' solicitor, I cannot see that your solicitor is at fault here.

Thanks for the reply. The application is due to be cancelled in two days time due to the failure to respond to their requisition. I’ve asked our solicitors to attempt to delay cancellation. 

My understanding is that if the LR cancel the application then we don’t have any claim on the property. 

What do you mean claim? Even if no Requisition had been raised, it would've still taken several months for the registration to complete. Which isn't an issue. You legally own the property from the day of completion. 

The issues no doubt lie with the sellers’ solicitors in that they’ve not been able to obtain confirmation from Target that their charge is removed. LR have also requested a better copy of the seller’s transfer form which, to date, our solicitors have not obtained from the sellers’ solicitors.

Which means sending out a new transfer to the client sign. Which isn't instant.

I really don’t think Land Reg delays are relevant - the issues are with the solicitors. Our solicitor needs to be ‘encouraged’ to ‘lean on’ the sellers’ solicitor. 

As above, the application would've still taken several months even if no Requistions had been raised. Where was your concern for "any claim" then?

As you correctly state I can’t complain about the sellers’ solicitors as I’m not their client.
So am I to accept that this may never be resolved ? As the buyer we must have some point of redress surely ? I can only think that’s the Ombudsman but I need to start a formal complaint first.

You have nothing to suggest this will never be resolved.

I asked our solicitors to escalate the matter with the sellers’ solicitor. They said they would but it appears now they haven’t despite saying it would be escalated to partner level.

Based on what? 

To sum it up. 

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill and looking to blame the wrong person(s).

dimple_pie

TBG01 said:

dimple_pie said:

Tiglet2 said:

The legal interests of the applicant (i.e. you) are protected from the moment HM Land Registry receives the application, not when they process it, regardless of how long it then takes to complete.  Therefore you do have a legal claim on the property.

Your solicitor will need to continually renew their OS1 application and respond to any requisitions received by the date stated on the requisition to prevent the Land Registry from cancelling the application.

If you are not selling or remortgaging the property then Land Registry will not expedite the application because there is no pending transaction depending on the updated title.  In other words as far as LR are concerned, your application is not a priority.

You are probably aware that there are huge backlogs at Land Registry, not so much with already registered transfers of whole title, but certainly with other more complex titles, such as first registrations or transfers of part.

I imagine that the issue might be that Target have not yet removed their charge on the title and therefore the title cannot be updated until they do that first.  This is not something that could have been done until after completion as the monies from the sale would have been needed to redeem the HTB equity loan.

You can complain, but I am not sure what good it will do.  Your solicitor is waiting for the seller's solicitor to assist/provide documentation (from Target?) and Land Registry cannot update the title until Target/seller's solicitor have done their bit.  Since you can only complain about your solicitor and not the sellers' solicitor, I cannot see that your solicitor is at fault here.

Thanks for the reply. The application is due to be cancelled in two days time due to the failure to respond to their requisition. I’ve asked our solicitors to attempt to delay cancellation. 

My understanding is that if the LR cancel the application then we don’t have any claim on the property. 

What do you mean claim? Even if no Requisition had been raised, it would've still taken several months for the registration to complete. Which isn't an issue. You legally own the property from the day of completion. 

The issues no doubt lie with the sellers’ solicitors in that they’ve not been able to obtain confirmation from Target that their charge is removed. LR have also requested a better copy of the seller’s transfer form which, to date, our solicitors have not obtained from the sellers’ solicitors.

Which means sending out a new transfer to the client sign. Which isn't instant.

I really don’t think Land Reg delays are relevant - the issues are with the solicitors. Our solicitor needs to be ‘encouraged’ to ‘lean on’ the sellers’ solicitor. 

As above, the application would've still taken several months even if no Requistions had been raised. Where was your concern for "any claim" then?

As you correctly state I can’t complain about the sellers’ solicitors as I’m not their client.
So am I to accept that this may never be resolved ? As the buyer we must have some point of redress surely ? I can only think that’s the Ombudsman but I need to start a formal complaint first.

You have nothing to suggest this will never be resolved.

I asked our solicitors to escalate the matter with the sellers’ solicitor. They said they would but it appears now they haven’t despite saying it would be escalated to partner level.

Based on what? 

To sum it up. 

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill and looking to blame the wrong person(s).

Rather aggressive, no ? Anyone would think you had some skin in the game. 

There appears no real prospect of this being resolved in the short term. I’m minded to go down a more formal route.

user1977

dimple_pie said:

TBG01 said:

dimple_pie said:

Tiglet2 said:

The legal interests of the applicant (i.e. you) are protected from the moment HM Land Registry receives the application, not when they process it, regardless of how long it then takes to complete.  Therefore you do have a legal claim on the property.

Your solicitor will need to continually renew their OS1 application and respond to any requisitions received by the date stated on the requisition to prevent the Land Registry from cancelling the application.

If you are not selling or remortgaging the property then Land Registry will not expedite the application because there is no pending transaction depending on the updated title.  In other words as far as LR are concerned, your application is not a priority.

You are probably aware that there are huge backlogs at Land Registry, not so much with already registered transfers of whole title, but certainly with other more complex titles, such as first registrations or transfers of part.

I imagine that the issue might be that Target have not yet removed their charge on the title and therefore the title cannot be updated until they do that first.  This is not something that could have been done until after completion as the monies from the sale would have been needed to redeem the HTB equity loan.

You can complain, but I am not sure what good it will do.  Your solicitor is waiting for the seller's solicitor to assist/provide documentation (from Target?) and Land Registry cannot update the title until Target/seller's solicitor have done their bit.  Since you can only complain about your solicitor and not the sellers' solicitor, I cannot see that your solicitor is at fault here.

Thanks for the reply. The application is due to be cancelled in two days time due to the failure to respond to their requisition. I’ve asked our solicitors to attempt to delay cancellation. 

My understanding is that if the LR cancel the application then we don’t have any claim on the property. 

What do you mean claim? Even if no Requisition had been raised, it would've still taken several months for the registration to complete. Which isn't an issue. You legally own the property from the day of completion. 

The issues no doubt lie with the sellers’ solicitors in that they’ve not been able to obtain confirmation from Target that their charge is removed. LR have also requested a better copy of the seller’s transfer form which, to date, our solicitors have not obtained from the sellers’ solicitors.

Which means sending out a new transfer to the client sign. Which isn't instant.

I really don’t think Land Reg delays are relevant - the issues are with the solicitors. Our solicitor needs to be ‘encouraged’ to ‘lean on’ the sellers’ solicitor. 

As above, the application would've still taken several months even if no Requistions had been raised. Where was your concern for "any claim" then?

As you correctly state I can’t complain about the sellers’ solicitors as I’m not their client.
So am I to accept that this may never be resolved ? As the buyer we must have some point of redress surely ? I can only think that’s the Ombudsman but I need to start a formal complaint first.

You have nothing to suggest this will never be resolved.

I asked our solicitors to escalate the matter with the sellers’ solicitor. They said they would but it appears now they haven’t despite saying it would be escalated to partner level.

Based on what? 

To sum it up. 

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill and looking to blame the wrong person(s).

I’m minded to go down a more formal route.

In which case you should ensure you are pointing your formal finger at the right person, otherwise it’s all a waste of everybody’s time.