£250 digital photo frame now needs subscription to work?

MobileSaver

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Terms have to be fair with regards to price amendments

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/schedule/2/enacted

A term which has the object or effect of giving the trader the discretion to decide the price payable under the contract after the consumer has become bound by it, where no price or method of determining the price is agreed when the consumer becomes bound.

A term which has the object or effect of permitting a trader to increase the price of goods, digital content or services without giving the consumer the right to cancel the contract if the final price is too high in relation to the price agreed when the contract was concluded.

CMA guidance covers this in section 5.53

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450440/Unfair_Terms_Main_Guidance.pdf

The contract would have to be written carefully to account for this type of change. 

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but what remedy does that leave the OP with, and against whom?

What they want is to view their photos.

If they are unable to use the frame with more than 100 photos without payment the goods no longer match the description and OP would be entitled to reject them. (Of course the description of the goods comes in to play but unless they said in 3 years time you'll have to pay £5.99 to cycle more than 100 photos I don't see what could usually be said on Amazon product page that would cover this).

I think the bolded bit is key, what exactly did the original description say? Unless the description stated that you could cycle more than 100 photos without paying extra then there's little the OP can do.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

MobileSaver said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Terms have to be fair with regards to price amendments

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/schedule/2/enacted

A term which has the object or effect of giving the trader the discretion to decide the price payable under the contract after the consumer has become bound by it, where no price or method of determining the price is agreed when the consumer becomes bound.

A term which has the object or effect of permitting a trader to increase the price of goods, digital content or services without giving the consumer the right to cancel the contract if the final price is too high in relation to the price agreed when the contract was concluded.

CMA guidance covers this in section 5.53

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450440/Unfair_Terms_Main_Guidance.pdf

The contract would have to be written carefully to account for this type of change. 

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but what remedy does that leave the OP with, and against whom?

What they want is to view their photos.

If they are unable to use the frame with more than 100 photos without payment the goods no longer match the description and OP would be entitled to reject them. (Of course the description of the goods comes in to play but unless they said in 3 years time you'll have to pay £5.99 to cycle more than 100 photos I don't see what could usually be said on Amazon product page that would cover this).

I think the bolded bit is key, what exactly did the original description say? Unless the description stated that you could cycle more than 100 photos without paying extra then there's little the OP can do.

It would have to state the opposite, that you would be required to pay to cycle more than 100. 

The trader must inform the consumer of

(a)the main characteristics of the [F1goods, services or digital content], to the extent appropriate to the medium of communication and to the [F1goods, services or digital content];

Omitting limits on use wouldn't meet this requirement. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/3/3

Section 11: Goods to be as described
This section also, through subsections (4) and (5), provides that certain information required by the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (“the 2013 Regulations”), which implement the CRD, forms part of the contract. These regulations require traders to provide certain information to consumers before consumers are bound by a contract. The information required by paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 of these regulations relates to the main characteristics of the goods. The section establishes that any information that is provided by the trader and that is about the main characteristics – so is of a category mentioned in paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 of the 2013 Regulations - forms part of the contract. If the information regarding the main characteristics is not complied with, the consumer can pursue the protections for breach of section 11, as set out in section 19.

Section 19 is the Consumer’s rights to enforce terms about goods (repair/replace, reject/price reduction). 

DullGreyGuy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:
It would have to state the opposite, that you would be required to pay to cycle more than 100. 

The trader must inform the consumer of

(a)the main characteristics of the [F1goods, services or digital content], to the extent appropriate to the medium of communication and to the [F1goods, services or digital content];

Omitting limits on use wouldn't meet this requirement. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/3/3

Section 11: Goods to be as described

This section also, through subsections (4) and (5), provides that certain information required by the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (“the 2013 Regulations”), which implement the CRD, forms part of the contract. These regulations require traders to provide certain information to consumers before consumers are bound by a contract. The information required by paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 of these regulations relates to the main characteristics of the goods. The section establishes that any information that is provided by the trader and that is about the main characteristics – so is of a category mentioned in paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 of the 2013 Regulations - forms part of the contract. If the information regarding the main characteristics is not complied with, the consumer can pursue the protections for breach of section 11, as set out in section 19.

Section 19 is the Consumer’s rights to enforce terms about goods (repair/replace, reject/price reduction). 

The issue here is that it appears to be a service not goods so section 11 doesnt apply but Chapter 4 instead

Whilst the OP protests at an item coming with T&Cs that is the reality of buying a hybrid goods/services product. The OP needs to read those T&Cs and see what they agreed to in relation to the service aspect. Ideally theyd have done that in 2020 whilst still in the cooling off period for their purchase but now is better than never.

I agree also with the other poster who seems broadly to have been ignored, its likely the device at its core is an Android tablet and would google to see if others have come up with solutions on how to change its firmware/OS so that it ceases to be coupled to the manufacturer (though Google Photos T&Cs will still apply etc)

MobileSaver

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

MobileSaver said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Terms have to be fair with regards to price amendments

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/schedule/2/enacted

A term which has the object or effect of giving the trader the discretion to decide the price payable under the contract after the consumer has become bound by it, where no price or method of determining the price is agreed when the consumer becomes bound.

A term which has the object or effect of permitting a trader to increase the price of goods, digital content or services without giving the consumer the right to cancel the contract if the final price is too high in relation to the price agreed when the contract was concluded.

CMA guidance covers this in section 5.53

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450440/Unfair_Terms_Main_Guidance.pdf

The contract would have to be written carefully to account for this type of change. 

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but what remedy does that leave the OP with, and against whom?

What they want is to view their photos.

If they are unable to use the frame with more than 100 photos without payment the goods no longer match the description and OP would be entitled to reject them. (Of course the description of the goods comes in to play but unless they said in 3 years time you'll have to pay £5.99 to cycle more than 100 photos I don't see what could usually be said on Amazon product page that would cover this).

I think the bolded bit is key, what exactly did the original description say? Unless the description stated that you could cycle more than 100 photos without paying extra then there's little the OP can do.

It would have to state the opposite, that you would be required to pay to cycle more than 100.

I think that without knowing exactly what the description said most replies here are obviously just speculation.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:
It would have to state the opposite, that you would be required to pay to cycle more than 100. 

The trader must inform the consumer of

(a)the main characteristics of the [F1goods, services or digital content], to the extent appropriate to the medium of communication and to the [F1goods, services or digital content];

Omitting limits on use wouldn't meet this requirement. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/3/3

Section 11: Goods to be as described

This section also, through subsections (4) and (5), provides that certain information required by the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (“the 2013 Regulations”), which implement the CRD, forms part of the contract. These regulations require traders to provide certain information to consumers before consumers are bound by a contract. The information required by paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 of these regulations relates to the main characteristics of the goods. The section establishes that any information that is provided by the trader and that is about the main characteristics – so is of a category mentioned in paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 of the 2013 Regulations - forms part of the contract. If the information regarding the main characteristics is not complied with, the consumer can pursue the protections for breach of section 11, as set out in section 19.

Section 19 is the Consumer’s rights to enforce terms about goods (repair/replace, reject/price reduction). 

The issue here is that it appears to be a service not goods so section 11 doesnt apply but Chapter 4 instead

Whilst the OP protests at an item coming with T&Cs that is the reality of buying a hybrid goods/services product. The OP needs to read those T&Cs and see what they agreed to in relation to the service aspect. Ideally theyd have done that in 2020 whilst still in the cooling off period for their purchase but now is better than never.

I agree also with the other poster who seems broadly to have been ignored, its likely the device at its core is an Android tablet and would google to see if others have come up with solutions on how to change its firmware/OS so that it ceases to be coupled to the manufacturer (though Google Photos T&Cs will still apply etc)

Yes I guess the frame itself could be the goods and the manner in which it works (the software) could be a service but that still requires the main characteristics 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/5/3/2

Secondly, for certain contracts, the 2013 Regulations mandate that certain information must be made available by a trader to a consumer before the consumer is bound by a contract. To enable enforcement of those Regulations, the Act makes clear that these pieces of information will form part of the contract – so that the service must be provided as stated in the information - which cannot be altered unless the parties expressly agree otherwise (although it may not be necessary to do so where the pre-contract information itself reflects the fact that the particular potential changes envisaged may be made). This part of the 2013 Regulations aims to ensure that consumers are properly informed of key information before they are bound by a contract. Certain services are excluded from the scope of the 2013 Regulations and therefore from this provision, such as financial and gambling services.

Secondly, the section explains that information provided which was required under the 2013 Regulations is also to be treated as included in the contract. Therefore, the trader must comply with the information it has provided or be in breach of contract.

Which ultimately entitles the consumer to a price reduction. 

DullGreyGuy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:
It would have to state the opposite, that you would be required to pay to cycle more than 100. 

The trader must inform the consumer of

(a)the main characteristics of the [F1goods, services or digital content], to the extent appropriate to the medium of communication and to the [F1goods, services or digital content];

Omitting limits on use wouldn't meet this requirement. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/3/3

Section 11: Goods to be as described

This section also, through subsections (4) and (5), provides that certain information required by the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (“the 2013 Regulations”), which implement the CRD, forms part of the contract. These regulations require traders to provide certain information to consumers before consumers are bound by a contract. The information required by paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 of these regulations relates to the main characteristics of the goods. The section establishes that any information that is provided by the trader and that is about the main characteristics – so is of a category mentioned in paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 of the 2013 Regulations - forms part of the contract. If the information regarding the main characteristics is not complied with, the consumer can pursue the protections for breach of section 11, as set out in section 19.

Section 19 is the Consumer’s rights to enforce terms about goods (repair/replace, reject/price reduction). 

The issue here is that it appears to be a service not goods so section 11 doesnt apply but Chapter 4 instead

Whilst the OP protests at an item coming with T&Cs that is the reality of buying a hybrid goods/services product. The OP needs to read those T&Cs and see what they agreed to in relation to the service aspect. Ideally theyd have done that in 2020 whilst still in the cooling off period for their purchase but now is better than never.

I agree also with the other poster who seems broadly to have been ignored, its likely the device at its core is an Android tablet and would google to see if others have come up with solutions on how to change its firmware/OS so that it ceases to be coupled to the manufacturer (though Google Photos T&Cs will still apply etc)

Yes I guess the frame itself could be the goods and the manner in which it works (the software) could be a service but that still requires the main characteristics 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/5/3/2

Secondly, for certain contracts, the 2013 Regulations mandate that certain information must be made available by a trader to a consumer before the consumer is bound by a contract. To enable enforcement of those Regulations, the Act makes clear that these pieces of information will form part of the contract – so that the service must be provided as stated in the information - which cannot be altered unless the parties expressly agree otherwise (although it may not be necessary to do so where the pre-contract information itself reflects the fact that the particular potential changes envisaged may be made). This part of the 2013 Regulations aims to ensure that consumers are properly informed of key information before they are bound by a contract. Certain services are excluded from the scope of the 2013 Regulations and therefore from this provision, such as financial and gambling services.

Secondly, the section explains that information provided which was required under the 2013 Regulations is also to be treated as included in the contract. Therefore, the trader must comply with the information it has provided or be in breach of contract.

Which ultimately entitles the consumer to a price reduction. 

Not necessarily because the T&Cs of the service form part of that contract too... so unless Amazon advertised it as "unlimited photos for life" then the unqualified "unlimited photos" in conjunction with an appropriate T&Cs in the contract could potentially allow that to be varied at a later date, as long as it was unlimited at the point of sale. 

Inevitably there are going to be T&Cs around this because ultimately its also dependent on a third party service (Google Photos) and neither Amazon nor the Manufacturer is going to want to be on the hook if tomorrow Google decide to limit the number of photos or turn off the service as this is out of both parties control.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:
It would have to state the opposite, that you would be required to pay to cycle more than 100. 

The trader must inform the consumer of

(a)the main characteristics of the [F1goods, services or digital content], to the extent appropriate to the medium of communication and to the [F1goods, services or digital content];

Omitting limits on use wouldn't meet this requirement. 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/3/3

Section 11: Goods to be as described

This section also, through subsections (4) and (5), provides that certain information required by the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 (“the 2013 Regulations”), which implement the CRD, forms part of the contract. These regulations require traders to provide certain information to consumers before consumers are bound by a contract. The information required by paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 of these regulations relates to the main characteristics of the goods. The section establishes that any information that is provided by the trader and that is about the main characteristics – so is of a category mentioned in paragraph (a) of Schedule 1 or 2 of the 2013 Regulations - forms part of the contract. If the information regarding the main characteristics is not complied with, the consumer can pursue the protections for breach of section 11, as set out in section 19.

Section 19 is the Consumer’s rights to enforce terms about goods (repair/replace, reject/price reduction). 

The issue here is that it appears to be a service not goods so section 11 doesnt apply but Chapter 4 instead

Whilst the OP protests at an item coming with T&Cs that is the reality of buying a hybrid goods/services product. The OP needs to read those T&Cs and see what they agreed to in relation to the service aspect. Ideally theyd have done that in 2020 whilst still in the cooling off period for their purchase but now is better than never.

I agree also with the other poster who seems broadly to have been ignored, its likely the device at its core is an Android tablet and would google to see if others have come up with solutions on how to change its firmware/OS so that it ceases to be coupled to the manufacturer (though Google Photos T&Cs will still apply etc)

Yes I guess the frame itself could be the goods and the manner in which it works (the software) could be a service but that still requires the main characteristics 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/5/3/2

Secondly, for certain contracts, the 2013 Regulations mandate that certain information must be made available by a trader to a consumer before the consumer is bound by a contract. To enable enforcement of those Regulations, the Act makes clear that these pieces of information will form part of the contract – so that the service must be provided as stated in the information - which cannot be altered unless the parties expressly agree otherwise (although it may not be necessary to do so where the pre-contract information itself reflects the fact that the particular potential changes envisaged may be made). This part of the 2013 Regulations aims to ensure that consumers are properly informed of key information before they are bound by a contract. Certain services are excluded from the scope of the 2013 Regulations and therefore from this provision, such as financial and gambling services.

Secondly, the section explains that information provided which was required under the 2013 Regulations is also to be treated as included in the contract. Therefore, the trader must comply with the information it has provided or be in breach of contract.

Which ultimately entitles the consumer to a price reduction. 

Not necessarily because the T&Cs of the service form part of that contract too... so unless Amazon advertised it as "unlimited photos for life" then the unqualified "unlimited photos" in conjunction with an appropriate T&Cs in the contract could potentially allow that to be varied at a later date, as long as it was unlimited at the point of sale. 

Inevitably there are going to be T&Cs around this because ultimately its also dependent on a third party service (Google Photos) and neither Amazon nor the Manufacturer is going to want to be on the hook if tomorrow Google decide to limit the number of photos or turn off the service as this is out of both parties control.

I do agree but as with terms varying price mentioned above, the trader's right to vary terms generally falls under

(11) A term which has the object or effect of enabling the trader to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract.

from the CRA and needs to consider the points raised in 5.21 of the CMA guidance (it's too long to post).

There is also

(13) A term which has the object or effect of enabling the trader to alter unilaterally without a valid reason any characteristics of the goods, digital content or services to be provided.

Although I'm unsure if that refers to changes over time. 

I may be misunderstanding the guidance but if Google photos disappears it reads as if the trader is responsible for this. If there were minor changes which didn't drastically affect the service that would appear to be acceptable, along with changes required to adhere to new laws, but the scope should be stated rather than just a blanket "we can change anything due to the law changing". 

DullGreyGuy

In both there is unhelpfully vague caveat of "without valid reason" 

Google stopping a service does feel like a "valid reason"... the device never offered an unlimited cloud based photo hosting service just that if you happen to use this one then you can hook it up. Technically they'd still be offering the bit they promised, the ability to hook it up just there is nothing on the other side to hook to (if Google Photo ceased).

Its unclear what role the manufacturer plays in the ongoing service provided to users, at a guess its just keeping the firmware up to date to avoid hackers and/or the changing APIs from Google. If that is the limit then it feels difficult to say how 999 or unlimited photos changes that to say there is a "valid reason" however if they do something more then maybe the volume of photos does make a material difference to them and that may be a "valid reason"

I wonder if there was a dialogue with the manufacture that there isnt the option to basically stop updating the device so you keep unlimited photos and no fee however if Google change their API etc the device will stop functioning with that service

Best solution remains googling the device and finding how others have patched the device to avoid both the fees and the limits.

tightauldgit

MobileSaver said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Manxman_in_exile said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Terms have to be fair with regards to price amendments

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/schedule/2/enacted

A term which has the object or effect of giving the trader the discretion to decide the price payable under the contract after the consumer has become bound by it, where no price or method of determining the price is agreed when the consumer becomes bound.

A term which has the object or effect of permitting a trader to increase the price of goods, digital content or services without giving the consumer the right to cancel the contract if the final price is too high in relation to the price agreed when the contract was concluded.

CMA guidance covers this in section 5.53

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/450440/Unfair_Terms_Main_Guidance.pdf

The contract would have to be written carefully to account for this type of change. 

Perhaps I'm missing the point, but what remedy does that leave the OP with, and against whom?

What they want is to view their photos.

If they are unable to use the frame with more than 100 photos without payment the goods no longer match the description and OP would be entitled to reject them. (Of course the description of the goods comes in to play but unless they said in 3 years time you'll have to pay £5.99 to cycle more than 100 photos I don't see what could usually be said on Amazon product page that would cover this).

I think the bolded bit is key, what exactly did the original description say? Unless the description stated that you could cycle more than 100 photos without paying extra then there's little the OP can do.

And even if it did, if the terms you signed up to on the service say 'we reserve the right to change the service later' then that should be sufficient to allow changes regardless of what the Amazon site said. You would of course have had grounds to return the item at that point and say 'i don't agree to those terms' but once agreed to they form part of your contract (provided of course the contract terms are legal)

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said

And even if it did, if the terms you signed up to on the service say 'we reserve the right to change the service later' 

 then that should be sufficient to allow changes 

That in itself would not be sufficient due the requirements of the CRA with regards terms which may be classed as unfair, simply stating "we reserve the right to change the service later" would be an unfair term and thus void. 

The term must provide scope, ensure the contract remains balanced and not of be of significant detriment to the consumer.