APCOA NTK - template letter request

H_mom

I think I have found the sticky posts (?) although I am not hugely experienced using forums etc so I'm not sure.
Would someone be able to advise me please 

• We are in England.
• The RingGo app was used to make payment in a train station car park on a Saturday.
• The following Monday the parking session was not showing in the app history nor payment taken.
• RingGo were contacted the same day and confirmed their system shows payment was attempted but not finalised.  RingGo suggested that 'on rare occasions customers may encounter an error or performance based issues should you lose connection during use of the app. The most likely point where you may experience an issue will be when submitting payment'.  They go on to say that you should check you receive an acknowledge that payment was successful and if not try again shifting the blame back to the user for not checking at the time.
• A Notice to Keeper was received yesterday on day 18 after parking event.  The letter is dated on day 10 after parking. Does the 'day 15' apply here?  Would it be our word against theirs?
• The letter does not show the duration of the parking period, but it does give a time the vehicle was photographed.
• It is an £85 fine (£50 for early payment in the next 5 days based on their dates on letters) for a £3.50 missed payment which is unfair.

I have read various threads and understand any appeal needs to be in the 'third party' with reference to a keeper and a driver.  I have seen a template letter that refers to signage not being clear etc but in this situation signage is not an issue.  Payment was attempted but not received.  

Do any experienced, successful PCN challengers have advice on what approach 'the keeper' should take, please? 
Thank you for reading.

Coupon-mad

Just use the appeal posted by @Grizebeck in his replies.

Umkomaas

If this is a Parking Charge Notice, just send the following, it will result in a cancellation:

As your Parking Charge Notice does not comply with the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4), you are, in law, unable to hold the registered keeper of the vehicle liable for the parking charge; I suggest therefore that you contact the driver. As there is no legal requirement placed on the registered keeper to identify the driver, I will not be doing so.'. 

If it is a Penalty Charge Notice, come back for more advice. Carefully check the letter you have received from them for the precise description. 

B789

H_mom said:

I think I have found the sticky posts (?) although I am not hugely experienced using forums etc so I'm not sure.
Would someone be able to advise me please 

• We are in England.
• The RingGo app was used to make payment in a train station car park on a Saturday.
• The following Monday the parking session was not showing in the app history nor payment taken.
• RingGo were contacted the same day and confirmed their system shows payment was attempted but not finalised.  RingGo suggested that 'on rare occasions customers may encounter an error or performance based issues should you lose connection during use of the app. The most likely point where you may experience an issue will be when submitting payment'.  They go on to say that you should check you receive an acknowledge that payment was successful and if not try again shifting the blame back to the user for not checking at the time.
• A Notice to Keeper was received yesterday on day 18 after parking event.  The letter is dated on day 10 after parking. Does the 'day 15' apply here?  Would it be our word against theirs?
• The letter does not show the duration of the parking period, but it does give a time the vehicle was photographed.
• It is an £85 fine (£50 for early payment in the next 5 days based on their dates on letters) for a £3.50 missed payment which is unfair.

I have read various threads and understand any appeal needs to be in the 'third party' with reference to a keeper and a driver.  I have seen a template letter that refers to signage not being clear etc but in this situation signage is not an issue.  Payment was attempted but not received.  

Do any experienced, successful PCN challengers have advice on what approach 'the keeper' should take, please? 
Thank you for reading.

You will need to go back through the Newbies/FAQ thread several times as it is a fount of information that you will need to keep referring back to in this process. It does explain how to calculate the dates from event to "issue" not "receipt". Receipt of any correspondence is "deemed" to have taken place x days after the date on it, whether that is what actually happened or not. In your case, if the letter was dated 10 days after the event, it is "deemed" to have been delivered on the 12th day, irrespective of the fact that you didn't receive it until day 15.

Also, your anger/upset about the "fine" being disproportionate to the fee is not a valid argument so don't dwell on that point.

If you haven't told them the identity of the driver, go and do a bit of searching/research on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and "relevant land" etc.

Was your PCN a "Parking" or a "Penalty" Charge Notice?

H_mom

B789 said:

You will need to go back through the Newbies/FAQ thread several times as it is a font of information that you will need to keep referring back to in this process. It does explain how to calculate the dates from event to "issue" not "receipt". Receipt of any correspondence is "deemed" to have taken place x days after the date on it, whether that is what actually happened or not. In your case, if the letter was dated 10 days after the event, it is "deemed" to have been delivered on the 12th day, irrespective of the fact that you didn't receive it until day 15.

Also, your anger/upset about the "fine" being disproportionate to the fee is not a valid argument so don't dwell on that point.

If you haven't told them the identity of the driver, go and do a bit of searching/research on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and "relevant land" etc.

Was your PCN a "Parking" or a "Penalty" Charge Notice?

Thank you for your reply.

We only received the NTK yesterday.  It is from APCOA.  It refers to Byelaw 14.  The letter says the named person is the registered keeper.  It says (mistakes included): "You may are legally liable for the offence as the owner even if you were not the driver at the time."  We haven't told them the identity of the driver.

The page with the picture of the car on it refers to a PENALTY NOTICE and they refer to a penalty charge in the letter.  On the website, the page with the picture of the car on it refers to a PARKING CHARGE NOTICE.  I'm not sure which it is.  I thought private companies like APCOA could only administer parking charge notices - do you know which one it would be, please? 

Under the heading of PENALTY NOTICE it says 'Creditor: APCOA Parking (UK) Ltd' which I read about on one of the posts here but I'm not sure I understood the nuance of it - is it relevant to an appeal? 

The letter was received on the 18th day; 6 days after the 12th day following the event.  Rather than 2 working days to receive the post, it has taken 8 days. 

I thought I had read the fine being disproportionate to the fee was a point of issue I'd read on this site - maybe not?
  
Thank you for your help.

H_mom

Umkomaas said:

If this is a Parking Charge Notice, just send the following, it will result in a cancellation:

As your Parking Charge Notice does not comply with the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4), you are, in law, unable to hold the registered keeper of the vehicle liable for the parking charge; I suggest therefore that you contact the driver. As there is no legal requirement placed on the registered keeper to identify the driver, I will not be doing so.'. 

If it is a Penalty Charge Notice, come back for more advice. Carefully check the letter you have received from them for the precise description. 

Thanks Umkomaas - it's a little confusing - I'm not sure what it is!

The hard copy received in the post yesterday has a picture of the car on it and refers to a PENALTY NOTICE and they also refer to a penalty charge in the letter...BUT on the website, the page with the picture of the car on it refers to a PARKING CHARGE NOTICE.  So I don't know - do you? 

I thought private companies like APCOA could only administer parking charge notices - no? 

Thank you for your help.

Coupon-mad

It's a railway penalty notice so just do every response on the VERY last possible day.  Slowly slowly catchee monkey.

Nothing happens and it times out in 6 months.  Hence why you drag it out.

Search the forum for APCOA PENALTY RAILWAY.

No-one pays.

KeithP

The mention of 'byelaw 14' points towards a railway station car park.
Which car park?

It is not possible to transfer any driver's liability to a keeper when a car park covered by Byelaws is used. This means that it is most important that the driver's identity is not given away.

H_mom

Coupon-mad said:

Just use the appeal posted by @Grizebeck in his replies.

Thank you Coupon-mad.  I'm not sure I know how to....I clicked on the @Grizebeck name and it shows they've had 1000 posts, I clicked on that icon and it showed me who else had earned that badge.  Thank you for the direction - if you have time would you be able to tell me how does a 'newbie' find the post you're referring to.

Coupon-mad

In his profile page exactly where you were. Look at his replies.

But you are not sending anything till day 28.

H_mom

KeithP said:

The mention of 'byelaw 14' points towards a railway station car park.
Which car park?

It is not possible to transfer any driver's liability to a keeper when a car park covered by Byelaws is used. This means that it is most important that the driver's identity is not given away.

Yes - it's a railway station car park (Basingstoke Station North Yard (ANPR))

It says an offence was committed by breaching Byelaw 14 and as such they've contacted DVLA to establish we are the registered keeper and therefore we are legally liable.

The frustrating thing is we did attempt payment and it was the RingGo app losing connection at the point of payment that we were not aware of until 2 days later when we checked the app, and we contacted RingGo to understand and resolve it.

Thanks for your insight.