Neighbour’s tottering fence

Daisy_84

BikingBud said:

Daisy_84 said:

CliveOfIndia said:

Daisy_84 said:

p00hsticks said:

Daisy_84 said:

The plans show that the fence is their responsibility.

I’m not asking them to maintain the fence. I’m asking where I stand with the neighbour want me to contribute.

If the boundary is definitely their responsibility then you have no obligation to contribute to the repair.  Of course, you may wish to offer a contribution for the sake of neighbourly relations, and if a repair will benefit both parties.  But there is no obligation to do so.

Having said that, it's not a difficult or expensive job to remove and replace a single post yourself.  If you want replace it with another wooden post, make sure you buy pressure-treated timber, and make sure the concrete extends slightly above ground level.  This will help prevent it rotting at ground level, which is what often happens.

The neighbours in question are very stuck up, so won’t be entering into those discussions with them. I won’t interfere by trying to get it fixed either since it’s their boundary. 

They are looking to sell their property so I think they may want to fix it. 

It's their boundary? Boundaries and maintenance of those via fences, walls etc are different things.

2.1 Legal boundary

An imaginary or invisible line dividing one person’s property from that of another. It is an exact line having no thickness or width and is rarely identified with any precision either on the ground or in conveyances or transfers and is not shown on Ordnance Survey mapping.

2.2 Physical boundary

A physical feature that we can see such as a fence, wall or a hedge, which may, coincidentally, also follow the line of a legal boundary. The legal boundary may run within the physical boundary structure but it might just as easily run along one particular side of the structure, or include all or any part of an adjoining roadway or stream. Living boundary structures such as hedges can be prone to a certain degree of movement: for example, if a hedge is left untended it might take root where it touches the ground and become very wide, making its original line hard to discern. So even if it is clear that the legal boundary ran along the hedge, identifying this boundary on the ground may become very difficult.

Daisy_84 said:

The fence that me and my neighbours share is starting to fall. I’ve had a look and I can see the that the post for that section of the fence is not secured by concrete. The plans show that the fence is their responsibility.

Obligation for the fence may be described but in reality that depends upon a number of things including how much you value having that physical separation:

8. Ownership and/or maintenance of boundaries

There are various notions that the way a wall or fence is constructed indicates ownership, for example that the posts and arris rails of a fence are on the owner’s side. There is, however, no legal foundation for such beliefs. Deeds may contain covenants to maintain a wall or fence but on their own, such covenants do not confer ownership. Where the ownership or responsibility for maintenance of a boundary cannot be determined, that boundary feature is generally best regarded as a party boundary. Any alterations or replacement of the boundary should only be done with the agreement of the adjoining owners.

The register will only show information concerning the ownership and/or maintenance of boundary features when this information is specifically referred to in the deeds lodged for registration.

From: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/land-registry-plans-boundaries/land-registry-plans-boundaries-practice-guide-40-supplement-3

And so what are your recommendations.

All you have shared is technical knowledge taken from the government’s website. I’m none the wiser as to what to do with the is information that you have shared.

GrumpyDil

Not sure what exactly you are expecting. Fences and boundaries are always comlicated but the basic answer is whoever owns the fence can decide to replace it and they can ask other parties for a contribution which they can agree to pay or decline. 

Daisy_84

GrumpyDil said:

Not sure what exactly you are expecting. Fences and boundaries are always comlicated but the basic answer is whoever owns the fence can decide to replace it and they can ask other parties for a contribution which they can agree to pay or decline. 

I’ve already been provided with that background. I said from the outset that I want to know what my obligations are and my understanding from the responses I’ve had so far is I have no obligation.

The plans that I got when I completed as a new build showed that my responsibility is the left fence.

BikingBud

Daisy_84 said:

BikingBud said:

Daisy_84 said:

CliveOfIndia said:

Daisy_84 said:

p00hsticks said:

Daisy_84 said:

The plans show that the fence is their responsibility.

I’m not asking them to maintain the fence. I’m asking where I stand with the neighbour want me to contribute.

If the boundary is definitely their responsibility then you have no obligation to contribute to the repair.  Of course, you may wish to offer a contribution for the sake of neighbourly relations, and if a repair will benefit both parties.  But there is no obligation to do so.

Having said that, it's not a difficult or expensive job to remove and replace a single post yourself.  If you want replace it with another wooden post, make sure you buy pressure-treated timber, and make sure the concrete extends slightly above ground level.  This will help prevent it rotting at ground level, which is what often happens.

The neighbours in question are very stuck up, so won’t be entering into those discussions with them. I won’t interfere by trying to get it fixed either since it’s their boundary. 

They are looking to sell their property so I think they may want to fix it. 

It's their boundary? Boundaries and maintenance of those via fences, walls etc are different things.

2.1 Legal boundary

An imaginary or invisible line dividing one person’s property from that of another. It is an exact line having no thickness or width and is rarely identified with any precision either on the ground or in conveyances or transfers and is not shown on Ordnance Survey mapping.

2.2 Physical boundary

A physical feature that we can see such as a fence, wall or a hedge, which may, coincidentally, also follow the line of a legal boundary. The legal boundary may run within the physical boundary structure but it might just as easily run along one particular side of the structure, or include all or any part of an adjoining roadway or stream. Living boundary structures such as hedges can be prone to a certain degree of movement: for example, if a hedge is left untended it might take root where it touches the ground and become very wide, making its original line hard to discern. So even if it is clear that the legal boundary ran along the hedge, identifying this boundary on the ground may become very difficult.

Daisy_84 said:

The fence that me and my neighbours share is starting to fall. I’ve had a look and I can see the that the post for that section of the fence is not secured by concrete. The plans show that the fence is their responsibility.

Obligation for the fence may be described but in reality that depends upon a number of things including how much you value having that physical separation:

8. Ownership and/or maintenance of boundaries

There are various notions that the way a wall or fence is constructed indicates ownership, for example that the posts and arris rails of a fence are on the owner’s side. There is, however, no legal foundation for such beliefs. Deeds may contain covenants to maintain a wall or fence but on their own, such covenants do not confer ownership. Where the ownership or responsibility for maintenance of a boundary cannot be determined, that boundary feature is generally best regarded as a party boundary. Any alterations or replacement of the boundary should only be done with the agreement of the adjoining owners.

The register will only show information concerning the ownership and/or maintenance of boundary features when this information is specifically referred to in the deeds lodged for registration.

From: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/land-registry-plans-boundaries/land-registry-plans-boundaries-practice-guide-40-supplement-3

And so what are your recommendations.

All you have shared is technical knowledge taken from the government’s website. I’m none the wiser as to what to do with the is information that you have shared.

I posted those because a lot of the queries and responses, including your post do not establish the reality, merely add confusion. And if you cannot get to the facts you will never understand the obligations. You called it their boundary - it is not theirs, it's a common boundary. Hence, I added the comment: "Obligation for the fence may be described but in reality that depends upon a number of things including how much you value having that physical separation"

Options?

• Do nothing but you seem not to want to do that.
• Your neighbour may also want to do nothing. If they have an obligation do you intend chasing them to meet that obligation? At cost and significant risk of dispute? 
• You seem not to want to even chat to them as you consider them "Stuck up' so I expect you won't be meeting halfway, having a coffee and splitting the cost. 

So nothing happens.

And you come on here expecting people to tell you what?

It may change if they do sell and you get a new neighbour it may get better or it may get worse, when they come with pets and their dogs find the holes and begin exploring beyond the fence.

So if you want a recommendation; If you feel you need a physical boundary pay for a fence!

Is that OK?

Daisy_84

BikingBud said:

Daisy_84 said:

BikingBud said:

Daisy_84 said:

CliveOfIndia said:

Daisy_84 said:

p00hsticks said:

Daisy_84 said:

The plans show that the fence is their responsibility.

I’m not asking them to maintain the fence. I’m asking where I stand with the neighbour want me to contribute.

If the boundary is definitely their responsibility then you have no obligation to contribute to the repair.  Of course, you may wish to offer a contribution for the sake of neighbourly relations, and if a repair will benefit both parties.  But there is no obligation to do so.

Having said that, it's not a difficult or expensive job to remove and replace a single post yourself.  If you want replace it with another wooden post, make sure you buy pressure-treated timber, and make sure the concrete extends slightly above ground level.  This will help prevent it rotting at ground level, which is what often happens.

The neighbours in question are very stuck up, so won’t be entering into those discussions with them. I won’t interfere by trying to get it fixed either since it’s their boundary. 

They are looking to sell their property so I think they may want to fix it. 

It's their boundary? Boundaries and maintenance of those via fences, walls etc are different things.

2.1 Legal boundary

An imaginary or invisible line dividing one person’s property from that of another. It is an exact line having no thickness or width and is rarely identified with any precision either on the ground or in conveyances or transfers and is not shown on Ordnance Survey mapping.

2.2 Physical boundary

A physical feature that we can see such as a fence, wall or a hedge, which may, coincidentally, also follow the line of a legal boundary. The legal boundary may run within the physical boundary structure but it might just as easily run along one particular side of the structure, or include all or any part of an adjoining roadway or stream. Living boundary structures such as hedges can be prone to a certain degree of movement: for example, if a hedge is left untended it might take root where it touches the ground and become very wide, making its original line hard to discern. So even if it is clear that the legal boundary ran along the hedge, identifying this boundary on the ground may become very difficult.

Daisy_84 said:

The fence that me and my neighbours share is starting to fall. I’ve had a look and I can see the that the post for that section of the fence is not secured by concrete. The plans show that the fence is their responsibility.

Obligation for the fence may be described but in reality that depends upon a number of things including how much you value having that physical separation:

8. Ownership and/or maintenance of boundaries

There are various notions that the way a wall or fence is constructed indicates ownership, for example that the posts and arris rails of a fence are on the owner’s side. There is, however, no legal foundation for such beliefs. Deeds may contain covenants to maintain a wall or fence but on their own, such covenants do not confer ownership. Where the ownership or responsibility for maintenance of a boundary cannot be determined, that boundary feature is generally best regarded as a party boundary. Any alterations or replacement of the boundary should only be done with the agreement of the adjoining owners.

The register will only show information concerning the ownership and/or maintenance of boundary features when this information is specifically referred to in the deeds lodged for registration.

From: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/land-registry-plans-boundaries/land-registry-plans-boundaries-practice-guide-40-supplement-3

And so what are your recommendations.

All you have shared is technical knowledge taken from the government’s website. I’m none the wiser as to what to do with the is information that you have shared.

I posted those because a lot of the queries and responses, including your post do not establish the reality, merely add confusion. And if you cannot get to the facts you will never understand the obligations. You called it their boundary - it is not theirs, it's a common boundary. Hence, I added the comment: "Obligation for the fence may be described but in reality that depends upon a number of things including how much you value having that physical separation"

Options?

• Do nothing but you seem not to want to do that.
• Your neighbour may also want to do nothing. If they have an obligation do you intend chasing them to meet that obligation? At cost and significant risk of dispute? 
• You seem not to want to even chat to them as you consider them "Stuck up' so I expect you won't be meeting halfway, having a coffee and splitting the cost. 

So nothing happens.

And you come on here expecting people to tell you what?

It may change if they do sell and you get a new neighbour it may get better or it may get worse, when they come with pets and their dogs find the holes and begin exploring beyond the fence.

So if you want a recommendation; If you feel you need a physical boundary pay for a fence!

Is that OK?

I don’t know how you came up with your first bullet. My position is to do nothing. The fence doesn’t bother me.

My query was about whether I would have an obligation if they tried to place one on me and people have made it clear that I have no obligation. I’m satisfied with that. Anyway, the fence has their decorations. Who am I to interfere?

Yes. I’m not prepared to meet them halfway. They haven’t been good neighbours and I was disappointed that their house wasn’t bought when they put it on the market. It turns out it was actually overpriced as the neighbours next to them on the other side managed to theirs.

turnitround

The fence may not bother you now but what about in the future? It wont look nice when it rots even further and somewhere along the line pets or children may need to be considered. 

If it were me then I would offer to go halves with your neighbour, be it these or the next ones, then at least you have a say in what gets put up. What will happen if you decide to sell your house and the fence is left to become an eyesore, or if the fence stays as it is and ends up with gaps which allow your neighbours to look directly into your garden.

Its ok to be stubborn but that in itself is not neighbourly either. There is a lot to be said for trying to get along with people next door. Maybe they consider you 'stuck up'. 

Daisy_84

turnitround said:

The fence may not bother you now but what about in the future? It wont look nice when it rots even further and somewhere along the line pets or children may need to be considered. 

If it were me then I would offer to go halves with your neighbour, be it these or the next ones, then at least you have a say in what gets put up. What will happen if you decide to sell your house and the fence is left to become an eyesore, or if the fence stays as it is and ends up with gaps which allow your neighbours to look directly into your garden.

It’s ok to be stubborn but that in itself is not neighbourly either. There is a lot to be said for trying to get along with people next door. Maybe they consider you 'stuck up'. 

I’ll be happy to go halfway with potential new neighbours that move in, whenever that will be, just not these ones I’m afraid. 

There’s a history even way before we bought the houses. I knew the one half of the couple from a local community, she was cold and I also was aware that she’d had fall outs with certain people within the community who she had worked with as their manager. It’s just unfortunate we ended up being neighbours. It was a coincidence.

I’m not stuck up. I’m a friendly person. Unfortunately my friendliness wasn’t reciprocated and eventually I gave up.

They also have written notes to some neighbours to tell them not to park in areas where they are legally entitled to park.

You don’t know the history with them, so please don’t be judgmental.

born_again

Daisy_84 said:

GrumpyDil said:

Not sure what exactly you are expecting. Fences and boundaries are always comlicated but the basic answer is whoever owns the fence can decide to replace it and they can ask other parties for a contribution which they can agree to pay or decline. 

I’ve already been provided with that background. I said from the outset that I want to know what my obligations are and my understanding from the responses I’ve had so far is I have no obligation.

The plans that I got when I completed as a new build showed that my responsibility is the left fence.

So they will have the same & should know that. All you have to do is show them the copy you have 👍

Jonboy_1984

There may be an option to simply reinforce this with a repair spur, which is a 4’ length of concrete. 2’ is sunk into the ground with post-crete, and the other 2’ is screwed to the wooden post above ground. I did three DIY for around £60 materials, and understand the going rate for a contractor is around £80 per post (digging through the existing concrete is the hard bit). 

There are also metal spikes on eBay that have an offset spike to avoid the digging but not used them.

redped

Jonboy_1984 said:

There may be an option to simply reinforce this with a repair spur, which is a 4’ length of concrete. 2’ is sunk into the ground with post-crete, and the other 2’ is screwed to the wooden post above ground. I did three DIY for around £60 materials, and understand the going rate for a contractor is around £80 per post (digging through the existing concrete is the hard bit). 

There are also metal spikes on eBay that have an offset spike to avoid the digging but not used them.

I've recently used several sets of these on an old fence at my mum's house - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Post-Buddy-Lumber-Repair-Stakes/dp/B01M116PI2.  They're easy to install and have definitely made the posts more secure, time will tell how long they last.