Bills not going down despite using less

Robin9

Yes because that radiator will give out more heat, reach the required temp (20 is generally good enough but your mum may need a touch more) quicker then the boiler cuts out saving gas.

Tell us more of your house  - age, you say loft insulation but is that 100mm or 300mm, double glaze, wall insulation, where is the room stat ?
 ....  and the electrics - are you all LED or do you have those 50w halogens in the kitchen ?

Does she get the Warm Homes Allowance ?


What benefits does you mum get ? 

Alnat1

I use a heated throw in the evenings if I feel chilly. Perhaps something like that would suit your mum, you can adjust the heat output and they use very little electricity.

tightauldgit

michael079 said:

Robin9 said:

With respect @michael079  that radiator is but a token gesture -  mine in a room 5 x 4   is 1500 x 800  and double panel.

Does a radiator that big use more gas though? I understand it will obviously heat better, but I'm just trying to work out how it all affects gas usage. For example, I still don't understand if we are paying for actual usage, why turning the heating down doesn't affect the bill, and whether I should be turning it down at all now if it doesn't affect it.

Sorry if these are really obvious questions it's just the whole thing confuses me so much due to the illogical bills 

Turning the heating down will only save money if it's actually using less gas - if you turn the thermostat from 30o to 25o (which both are crazy) and your room is only ever getting to 20o then you won't actually be using any less gas because in both cases the boiler will be running non-stop to try to heat the room to the temperature you've set. The thermostat is just effectively an on-off switch for the boiler so it'll only save you money if the temperature is set to a number that your system can actually achieve. If you turn it to 10o then yes you should save gas and money but your house will be cold. 

The issue for you seems to be that your current system doesn't actually heat the house well and that's what you need to investigate - is it because of losses, or because your rads are undersized or whatever. 

Yes there's a lot that can be done in terms of getting a more efficient heating set up and insulation is generally a good place to start but you should also bear in mind that there's an element of physics to it all too - if you want to heat a space to 25oC when the outside temp is 5oC then that takes an amount of energy - the only real ways to reduce that are either to reduce the temperature of your house, heat the house more efficiently by changing the system and/or stop the losses so your bucket isn't leaky. There's no magic wand to reduce energy bills.

markin

Then i presume its a modern condensing boiler, what is the flow temp set to? Model?

Leaving the heating on 24hrs at 24c (for elderly people) with a low flow temp around 45c - 50c is the most efficient way.

Often people with smart meters report tuning off for 2 hrs or over night just doesn't save any gas, It just has to work double hard to make up the heat loss Vs gently ticking over to maintain temp.

Scot_39

michael079 said:

Robin9 said:

Electric 532 (day ?)  in a month.

That is where your costs are not the gas

so --  panel heaters,  showers, fish tanks, ponds, greenhouses, fridges (American ?) ?????????????

Just washing machine and electric fan heater that's the main electric users aside from tv lights etc. Central heating doesn't warm the house properly, even had British gas round recently to try address the issue and he looked at the radiators and gave some advice but not much changed. I saw that the gas bill was always much higher and because we use the fan heater a lot anyway, decided to turn down the gas more which hasn't made any difference anyway 

Electric sr is 3x more expensive than gas.

In some regions and other suppliers e7 day rates many over 4x, some over 5x more expensive than gas.

Switching down gch, may actually mean the heater is on more not less.

The fan heater may be costing 70p - £1 per hour for typical 2kW model.

Scot_39

michael079 said:

Robin9 said:

30 WOW   - you will cook.

Suspect a faulty stat  - have your tried a portable type of stat around the rooms ?

That's the problem though, we don't cook. Far from it. And the gas man said there's no problem or anything that can be improved. During colder months it's at 30 and the fan heater is also needed for a little while to bump up the heat. I've already had a thread about all this and people mentioning 30 is too high towards the end of last year. 30 for us is warmer but is nothing special, and gas man said nothing wrong with stat. 

Setting the thermostat much more than 1-2C above room temp will make no difference - if it never switches the heating off because the room not getting hot enough  - its not the problem so if rooms at 18 say - 20+, 25, 30, likely to see no impact - as that's not what is limiting the gas heating. 

If the room cannot get to 18, or 20-21+ for elderly disabled etc - that just suggests your gch system is underrated - e.g. in terms of radiator size and or flow temperature to those radiators.  Do all the radiators have trv - temperature control valves - and their settings ?

Most modern boilers are if anything over rated - compared to room heat average energy requirement etc - so assuming that not the problem.  (To heat in hours in morning if off overnight etc, or in terms of combis to get high water flows) 

Personally whilst the gas man said everything working, that doesn't mean its right for your needs, and providing enough energy for your needs. 

And to be fair to him/her - your average gas service engineer is not likely to be used to rating / heat sizing calcs anyway.

My guess if everything working to spec is perhaps need bigger powered, e.g. bigger radiators on gch or double radiators or even treble radiators these days apparently or higher flow temperatures - to achieve a higher ambient room temperature - as they have to balance increased heat loss (windows, walls, doors etc).

A cheaper work around is perhaps a small desktop fan - around £10-15 in main room - not het - just forcing air - on low flow across existing radiator - increasing heat exchange rate  (you can buy bespoke ones that fit onto radiators or between double radiators etc.)

And make sure not wasting heat - by heating behind curtains.  And if on external walls - try getting some heat reflective padding - it costs £10s per roll and stick it on wall behind the radiators.

You need to minimise easy losses if possible - drafts etc - doors - windows - DG or if single - add film, thermal curtains, draft excluders etc etc.


If saving heat doesn't help enough - then ultimately my guess is you need a survey and possibly one or more new radiators.  Most reputable suppliers have training. Some radiator retailers - have calcs, most will have heating / sizing guides.

And use the cheapest source of power - gas -  to balance those losses.

That despite recent rises is still gas.  SR electric is c33p per energy unit, gas c10p.  E7 day rate worse - many in the 42-50p range  some in the mid 50s.  And without nsh and hw immersion, unlikely the house split will favour E7 style tariffs anyway..

Scot_39

Alnat1 said:

I use a heated throw in the evenings if I feel chilly. Perhaps something like that would suit your mum, you can adjust the heat output and they use very little electricity.

A normal throw makes a  big difference too, without any cost.

In winter I use cotton vest style  long johns under trousers or a normal sub £10 high street style cheap throw  - both make a big difference to temp of lower legs and feet.

And that's were older folks circulation can struggle when cold - as sub 18 - body starts shutting down external losses to keep core up.

Scot_39

michael079 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

With the stat at 30 and the rooms never reaching anywhere near it means the heading is always on, trying to reach that temperature.  That's going to use a heck of a lot.

Also you've not said why there are two electricity rates when she has gas heating and hot water?  That's making all your daytime electricity use way more expensive than it needs to be (unless they're charging the single rate for both readings).

I have no idea why there are two rates. She can't tell me anymore because she has dementia. I always had a prepaid meter when I had my own flat so I'm not familiar with it. I also don't know how they calculate it but they do ask for both rates, day time and night time when I enter the readings 

The historical reasons really don't matter.

Assuming you have power of attorney etc you can swap on her behalf - it's often very quick process - but their can be issues(*)

If you can dig out annual day and night and tariff splits - the electric p/kWH people will advise if still worthwhile  (medical aids that most people don't think of can swing it z so not just likes of nsh and immersion hot water etc)  - but as a general you need to be using over 40% electric off peak overnight to get anywhere close to break even.

(*) Also if you can say whether she has 1 or 2 meters - the bills will have one or 2 mpans (little grids with loads of reference numbers and codes ) or 2 meter serial numbers. 
Don't quote them just the number of thrm 1 or 2  - like any personal information on any bills - redact it before post images etc.

Scot_39

Robin9 said:

Other than being in Edinburgh and he's blocked the chimney I think we now very little about the OP's property.  

Semi/flat/3 bed/ 1930's / solid walls,/single glazing / roof insulation.....................

Edinburgh gives one major clue.

As the ambient temperature likely to be say 3 C below if not midlands certainly Southern England.

And that has a massive impact on losses, energy requirement and so bills.

Scot_39

michael079 said:

Robin9 said:

With respect @michael079  that radiator is but a token gesture -  mine in a room 5 x 4   is 1500 x 800  and double panel.

Does a radiator that big use more gas though? I understand it will obviously heat better, but I'm just trying to work out how it all affects gas usage. For example, I still don't understand if we are paying for actual usage, why turning the heating down doesn't affect the bill, and whether I should be turning it down at all now if it doesn't affect it.

Sorry if these are really obvious questions it's just the whole thing confuses me so much due to the illogical bills 

It not a silly question or questions.  Lots of people here understand energy, lots of people come here to ask because they don't.

Most of the former only too willing to help the latter - myself included on more modern systems I might need in next few years - but have no experience of.

As I said in another answer - the thermostat setting only matters if rooms reach the set temperature - so 25 or 30 makes no difference if room 18 or 20.  They act essentially as an ON/OFF switch - your GCH will just be permanently on at 25 or 30.

A bigger radiator is essentially maybe like switching a fan heater from power 1kW to 2KW - it will deliver more energy over a given time to deliver more heat to the room. 

But as you are only using the fan heater periodically - the balance might be more marginal - perhaps try using fan to simply increase air circulation / heat exchange rate around the existing radiator ( either blowing across the surface - or blowing hot air away from around the top into the room ).

And even a bespoke fan heater to draw air through the double panel gap start around £50  - have a Google for radiator fans - brands like SmartAir or SpeedComfort. Speedcomfort fans been mentioned by other MSErs in posts in past as greatly speeding up room heating early in morning or evening on return from work etc.  Some claiming as much as halved times iirc - so that means doubling output heat.

Far cheaper than a radiator upgrade - and cost pennies to run annually according to amazon 0.55kWh annually claim for latter brand.


And you pay for that energy - so yes it will impact your gas bills.

But it is that total energy (from radiator effective power or your fan heater power over time) that controls your room temperature.

So if you want 20C but only getting 18 say - you need more energy in - or control losses better to keep it in - improved insulation.

And yes that will cost more.

But less by gas as a rule than heating the room to the same temperature than if using more expensive electricity rates (some E7 or legacy rates are flatter, but E7 day rates over 40p common, some over 50p with other suppliers)

The old radiator may have been sized assuming the fire would still be used on spring / aurumn days alone - and in winter with  gch - gas or coal etc as you said blocked chimney.   
My parents first gch - renting from council at time c40 years ago - didn't even fit a radiator at all in living room - just an old style radiating heat gas fire and backboiler (the coal fire did hot water too).  It was rateed around 5kW on max - so could actually heat most of the house unless windy and winter cold outside.

You may well find their are additional schemes open to your elderly mother - not the general public - that might provide grants for improvements to insulation.  Talk to energy supllier or council or citizens advice or scope etc if they cover dimentia etc.  My parents had loft insulation over doubled in depth from original and cavity walls done ( if suitable ) - from free schemes running in past.