Economy 7 and April Increases are crazy

70sbudgie

dunstonh said:

pensionpawn said:

I was an E7 customer for over 25 years until the tariff increases of 1st January and the hike in the E7 utilisation to >40%, effectively making E7 no longer beneficial for me. I swapped to single rate and as a consequence I now run my dishwasher,  wash-dryer machine, under floor heating etc during the day, when more convenient to me. During an energy crisis that change made sense to someone somewhere...

On the other hand, the 1st January reductions in the E7 off peak unit price were fantastic for us.    We shoved more use to off peak because of it.  The small increase in April is not great it's only a pennies increase daily for us on 50kWh per day use.

During an "energy crisis", that change made perfect sense. 

Winners and losers.  Those with a high off peak ratio are winners.  Those with a low off peak ratio are losers.  However, those losers can still move to other suppliers who have a less noticeable ratio.

Any idea why eastern region has low night time tariff? 

Two major influences are how much energy the supplier sells in the area and how much it buys from generators in the area and how much it buys externally.   Generally, the more that can be generated locally the lower the cost.     

East Anglia's electricity transmission network was built in the 60s to supply regional demand. Not countrywide.   The region generates 4100MW.  Of which 3160 is used in the region and 940MW is distributed.   So, "Eastern" is a net generator.

Sizewell (which is run by EDF) generates a third of the region's needs.  It's 24 hour generation to an area that doesn't have much heavy industry that can run off peak

There are very many small onshore wind turbine sites and significant offshore sites around the East but the current infrastructure is not where it needs to be to export more of it to the wider grid.  There are some significant projects underway or under consultation to improve that.    Eastern has been referred to as becoming the UKs energy powerhouse.   

This is interesting, thank you.

What are your links for the data as I'd like to see whether my area (NW) is a net importer or exporter?

I also imagine the % of local generation used in the area has an impact on prices. 77% of "self consumption" will have an impact on transmission costs.

SnakePlissken

Scot_39 said:

Although large in terms of current capacity the 2 major pump storage I am aware of Coire Glas - storage and generation capacity, and Cruachan generation / refill, not actual storage capacity  - are trivial in terms of peak UK demand, if not Scotlands.

And being funded largely by private investment.

Recently said UK needs 10-50 Coire Glas to seriously look at  decommissioning significant numbers of  gas plants etc. Over and above the planned expansion of nuclear (which isn't happening anytime soon in Scotland under SNP Grens). 

Due to winds at time 5% actual ouput for days and 20% output for months every summer.

New coire glas is 1.4 GW and  30gw hours capacity and there are at least 5 others planned as well as a cruichan upgrade  and 2 additinal turbines, cruichan 2 on a nearby site,  giving a total 1000 mw.

https://www.energy-storage.news/foresight-group-invests-in-1-6gwh-pumped-hydro-energy-storage-and-wind-project-in-scotland/

https://www.waterpowermagazine.com/features/featurescottish-highlights-9973995/

https://renews.biz/83907/gilkes-reveals-900mw-scottish-pumped-storage-hydro-plans/

https://www.hydroreview.com/hydro-industry-news/ili-group-to-develop-1-5-gw-balliemeanoch-pumped-storage-in-scotland/#gref


https://www.power-technology.com/projects/red-john-pumped-storage-hydro-project/

But the massive increase is in offshore planned.

Scotland has 38 GW of offshore wind in its potential pipeline. When added to projects in operation, under construction and awaiting construction, this climbs to over 40 GW, the equivalent to producing enough electricity annually to power every home in Scotland for 17 years, or every home in the UK for over a year and a half.....


Current offshore wind pipeline in Scotland, which already has 1.8 GW in operation, comprises 3.8 GW of projects consented or under construction and 4.2 GW of projects with lease options secured ahead of ScotWind leasing results.

https://www.offshorewind.biz/2023/01/13/scotland-has-40-gw-of-offshore-wind-in-the-books-draft-energy-strategy-votes-against-nuclear-as-offshore-wind-proves-to-be-cheaper/

And Scotland has no need for new nukes as its produces well in excess of its total usage.

Scot_39

So why does both North and South of Scotland have amongst the highest E7 tarrif?

They produce in excess of what is used and are net exporters of energy to the rest of the UK.

Unlike latest auction prices c3.8p 2012 base, c4.4p indexed  2022 at time .

Old renewables weren't cheap.

In fact even in 2015 auction, the CfD price was as high as 12p for FOS wind,  the same as Hinkley C nuclear in 2012 (excluding the Sizewell C order discount clause - reducing it to just sub 10p iirc).

Funny, the greens screaming it was too expensive, weren't so vocal in 2015. 

And with grid pricing model, unless those are new renewables licensed under the Cons govts CfD terms, the market rate defines the price, not the actual production cost.

And unfortunately that new contract basis came too late to protect us all post Ukraine, as the installed capacity of renewables - or rather its much lower actual output - simply doesn't make enough power, a large enough share in total grid demand.

But as more of the latest auctions supply installed, (16.8 GW for 23-27 operation in last 2 auctions) that will increasingly factor in,  if gas remains high.

As would have Hinkley C 3.2 GW, if been built in the 10 year cycle hoped for new orders (Sizewell C ? Though 12 ? ), rather than 16 years from 2011 licensing for it.

But remember it's a min price guar too, so if gas ever returns to historic lows, it could go other way, adding to bills.  But in reality, much of what Ive read recently, suggests the carbon capture costs for continuing with gas generation, will prevent that.

The CfD rebate worth a higher £54 in Q2 2023 £3280 Ofgem cap for Apr 1, up from £40 in £4279 this quarter.

Small, but visible, and that's not a share of gas and electic totals quoted, but of the electric component.

Scot_39

@SnakePlissken

Thanks - will have a look at those other projects.

To see if they have regulatory approval yet and timescales etc.

Section62

SnakePlissken said:

So why does both North and South of Scotland have amongst the highest E7 tarrif?

Much of Scotland's hydro can be turned off in periods of low demand, and returned to generation relatively quickly if needed.  Hence using that capacity just to generate cheap electricity doesn't make sense. The currently operational PS capacity can also take surplus wind generation and put it to good use.

Scotland also has an extensive and expensive to maintain distribution system (compared to say East Anglia) and those costs will negatively weight the consumer prices in Scotland compared to other regions.

SnakePlissken

Section62 said:

SnakePlissken said:

So why does both North and South of Scotland have amongst the highest E7 tarrif?

Much of Scotland's hydro can be turned off in periods of low demand, and returned to generation relatively quickly if needed.  Hence using that capacity just to generate cheap electricity doesn't make sense. The currently operational PS capacity can also take surplus wind generation and put it to good use.

Scotland also has an extensive and expensive to maintain distribution system (compared to say East Anglia) and those costs will negatively weight the consumer prices in Scotland compared to other regions.

Do you have links to prove this?

Or is it just your own, opinion on the subject ?

And is the previous claim..

Generally, the more that can be generated locally the lower the cost.     

Then false?

And do you have evidence of maintenance cost of network in Scotland v east anglia?

EssexHebridean

As far as Section62's second paragraph goes, a lot of the network in particularly the North of Scotland involves remote and exposed areas, weather related power outages in the Western Isles are far more common than in mainland areas further south, for example. It's far from uncommon to find a pretty extensive run of supply cables serving just a handful of houses too - and again this is going to push up the costs. 

Mstty

SnakePlissken said:

Section62 said:

SnakePlissken said:

So why does both North and South of Scotland have amongst the highest E7 tarrif?

Much of Scotland's hydro can be turned off in periods of low demand, and returned to generation relatively quickly if needed.  Hence using that capacity just to generate cheap electricity doesn't make sense. The currently operational PS capacity can also take surplus wind generation and put it to good use.

Scotland also has an extensive and expensive to maintain distribution system (compared to say East Anglia) and those costs will negatively weight the consumer prices in Scotland compared to other regions.

Do you have links to prove this?

Or is it just your own, opinion on the subject ?

And is the previous claim..

Generally, the more that can be generated locally the lower the cost.     

Then false?

And do you have evidence of maintenance cost of network in Scotland v east anglia?

I would suggest it was common sense with a spread out population in remote areas with extreme weather compared to the average in the UK.

SnakePlissken

Mstty said:

SnakePlissken said:

Section62 said:

SnakePlissken said:

So why does both North and South of Scotland have amongst the highest E7 tarrif?

Much of Scotland's hydro can be turned off in periods of low demand, and returned to generation relatively quickly if needed.  Hence using that capacity just to generate cheap electricity doesn't make sense. The currently operational PS capacity can also take surplus wind generation and put it to good use.

Scotland also has an extensive and expensive to maintain distribution system (compared to say East Anglia) and those costs will negatively weight the consumer prices in Scotland compared to other regions.

Do you have links to prove this?

Or is it just your own, opinion on the subject ?

And is the previous claim..

Generally, the more that can be generated locally the lower the cost.     

Then false?

And do you have evidence of maintenance cost of network in Scotland v east anglia?

I would suggest it was common sense with a spread out population in remote areas with extreme weather compared to the average in the UK.

So no proof just a guess or opinion?

Hydro is the cheapest electricity per KW, cheaper than wind
The global weighted average levelized cost of electricity from new projects commissioned in 2017 was US$0.05/kWh from hydropower, compared with US$0.06 for onshore wind, $0.07 for bioenergy and geothermal projects and $0.10 for utility-scale solar photovoltaic. Hydro’s LCOE varies regionally, with 2016-2017 values being $0.04/kWh in Asia, $0.05 in South America, $0.06 in North America, $0.07 in Africa, Eurasia and the Middle East, $0.10 in Central America and the Caribbean and $0.12 in Europe.

https://www.hydroreview.com/business-finance/hydropower-remains-the-lowest-cost-source-of-electricity-globally/#gref

Scotland’s expensive energy bills mainly come down to the UK’s outdated energy market – a system that is still determined by fossil fuels and not cheap renewables.
Professor Michael Grubb, from UCL Bartlett School of Environment, Energy & Resources, claims that “the design of electricity systems has failed to catch up with the revolution in renewable energy”.
Grubb explains that the UK electricity market is seeing huge price rises because it relies on the most expensive generator setting the price, which is usually fossil fuels. This is because some gas plants need to run almost constantly, which they won’t do unless the electricity price is high enough to cover their operating cost.

https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/blog/scotland-electricity#:~:text=Scotland's expensive energy bills mainly,fuels and not cheap renewables.

Mstty

SnakePlissken said:

Mstty said:

SnakePlissken said:

Section62 said:

SnakePlissken said:

So why does both North and South of Scotland have amongst the highest E7 tarrif?

Much of Scotland's hydro can be turned off in periods of low demand, and returned to generation relatively quickly if needed.  Hence using that capacity just to generate cheap electricity doesn't make sense. The currently operational PS capacity can also take surplus wind generation and put it to good use.

Scotland also has an extensive and expensive to maintain distribution system (compared to say East Anglia) and those costs will negatively weight the consumer prices in Scotland compared to other regions.

Do you have links to prove this?

Or is it just your own, opinion on the subject ?

And is the previous claim..

Generally, the more that can be generated locally the lower the cost.     

Then false?

And do you have evidence of maintenance cost of network in Scotland v east anglia?

I would suggest it was common sense with a spread out population in remote areas with extreme weather compared to the average in the UK.

So no proof just a guess or opinion?

Hydro is the cheapest electricity per KW, cheaper than wind
The global weighted average levelized cost of electricity from new projects commissioned in 2017 was US$0.05/kWh from hydropower, compared with US$0.06 for onshore wind, $0.07 for bioenergy and geothermal projects and $0.10 for utility-scale solar photovoltaic. Hydro’s LCOE varies regionally, with 2016-2017 values being $0.04/kWh in Asia, $0.05 in South America, $0.06 in North America, $0.07 in Africa, Eurasia and the Middle East, $0.10 in Central America and the Caribbean and $0.12 in Europe.

https://www.hydroreview.com/business-finance/hydropower-remains-the-lowest-cost-source-of-electricity-globally/#gref

Scotland’s expensive energy bills mainly come down to the UK’s outdated energy market – a system that is still determined by fossil fuels and not cheap renewables.
Professor Michael Grubb, from UCL Bartlett School of Environment, Energy & Resources, claims that “the design of electricity systems has failed to catch up with the revolution in renewable energy”.
Grubb explains that the UK electricity market is seeing huge price rises because it relies on the most expensive generator setting the price, which is usually fossil fuels. This is because some gas plants need to run almost constantly, which they won’t do unless the electricity price is high enough to cover their operating cost.

https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/blog/scotland-electricity#:~:text=Scotland's expensive energy bills mainly,fuels and not cheap renewables.

I will have a look later but there is reference to the higher cost of supply to North Scotland here but I suspect it might not be good enough for you.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-government-reaffirms-commitment-to-protect-energy-users-in-the-north-of-scotland