Extending house

RebeccaCar

Thanks so much for your advice. Yes there is a substation, I noticed it yesterday. Hidden in the corner! I’ll look into it all before making any plans 

RebeccaCar

Section62 said:

RebeccaCar said:

One question though- does the white section immediately around my house mean that the highway restrictions won’t apply as much? Or is that wishful thinking!

Wishful thinking probably. I don't think too much can be read into either the OS or the highway plans.  The OS plan colouring is simply what the cartographer 'sees' when creating the dataset.  The highway plan is inconsistent in the way areas are shaded pink or left white. The fact the car park and other grassed areas are shaded pink would tend to suggest these areas of the estate generally have been transferred to highways rather than being retained by housing.  Looking at this plan alone, there is no logical reason why the grass verge next to yours (and also next to the property behind) wouldn't be highway if they are still in council ownership.

Looking more closely at the plan, I asked earlier whether there was an electricity substation nearby which might be why this land was there (i.e. providing a route for HV cables).  I think it likely the small square area in the corner of the car park is probably where the substation is.  Before getting too advanced with your plans you should find out whether there are electricity cables in the verge and/or under your drive - you won't be allowed to build over (or close to) HV cables, and having them moved is likely to be prohibitively expensive.

Also, comparing the size of your semi-pair to the others in the street, has yours already had a side extension? If so, you might find it harder than normal to get planning consent for an additional side extension, as councils tend to resist this because of the 'terracing effect'.  And if the property already has (say) four bedrooms then it may be more likely the council will require at least three off-street parking spaces provided within your property boundary, depending on local policy.

In other words, I wouldn't invest to much time and money into your plans without getting some of these big items ticked off - the land ownership question is one of those.

Hi there. I’ve taken the plunge and applied for planning permission to build on the driveway, the council have approved this.  

Can I ask if they would have considered if there was electrical wiring underneath the driveway before approving the plans? 

Also, I think I need to try and buy the land if I can’t obtain it via AP. Can the council charge what they want for it? 

RHemmings

RebeccaCar said:

Section62 said:

RebeccaCar said:

One question though- does the white section immediately around my house mean that the highway restrictions won’t apply as much? Or is that wishful thinking!

Wishful thinking probably. I don't think too much can be read into either the OS or the highway plans.  The OS plan colouring is simply what the cartographer 'sees' when creating the dataset.  The highway plan is inconsistent in the way areas are shaded pink or left white. The fact the car park and other grassed areas are shaded pink would tend to suggest these areas of the estate generally have been transferred to highways rather than being retained by housing.  Looking at this plan alone, there is no logical reason why the grass verge next to yours (and also next to the property behind) wouldn't be highway if they are still in council ownership.

Looking more closely at the plan, I asked earlier whether there was an electricity substation nearby which might be why this land was there (i.e. providing a route for HV cables).  I think it likely the small square area in the corner of the car park is probably where the substation is.  Before getting too advanced with your plans you should find out whether there are electricity cables in the verge and/or under your drive - you won't be allowed to build over (or close to) HV cables, and having them moved is likely to be prohibitively expensive.

Also, comparing the size of your semi-pair to the others in the street, has yours already had a side extension? If so, you might find it harder than normal to get planning consent for an additional side extension, as councils tend to resist this because of the 'terracing effect'.  And if the property already has (say) four bedrooms then it may be more likely the council will require at least three off-street parking spaces provided within your property boundary, depending on local policy.

In other words, I wouldn't invest to much time and money into your plans without getting some of these big items ticked off - the land ownership question is one of those.

Hi there. I’ve taken the plunge and applied for planning permission to build on the driveway, the council have approved this.  

Can I ask if they would have considered if there was electrical wiring underneath the driveway before approving the plans? 

Also, I think I need to try and buy the land if I can’t obtain it via AP. Can the council charge what they want for it? 

Just two minor points. If you are applying for AP, then you don't need to have stayed at the house for 12 years. Time that the previous owner or owners of your property have used the piece of land in question counts. Can you contact them to provide evidence for any application?

For adverse possession to be possible, the possession needs to be adverse. I.e. without the consent of the landowner. I can't see anything in your posts that definitely shows that consent to use the land from the POV of a landowner was granted. But, if the council own the land and also gave permission for the driveway and building on that ... I think that needs to be given a little consideration as to whether AP is still possible. I think it most likely that it is possible, but I am not a lawyer (and this is not legal advice), and I am not sure personally. 

RebeccaCar

RHemmings said:

RebeccaCar said:

Section62 said:

RebeccaCar said:

One question though- does the white section immediately around my house mean that the highway restrictions won’t apply as much? Or is that wishful thinking!

Wishful thinking probably. I don't think too much can be read into either the OS or the highway plans.  The OS plan colouring is simply what the cartographer 'sees' when creating the dataset.  The highway plan is inconsistent in the way areas are shaded pink or left white. The fact the car park and other grassed areas are shaded pink would tend to suggest these areas of the estate generally have been transferred to highways rather than being retained by housing.  Looking at this plan alone, there is no logical reason why the grass verge next to yours (and also next to the property behind) wouldn't be highway if they are still in council ownership.

Looking more closely at the plan, I asked earlier whether there was an electricity substation nearby which might be why this land was there (i.e. providing a route for HV cables).  I think it likely the small square area in the corner of the car park is probably where the substation is.  Before getting too advanced with your plans you should find out whether there are electricity cables in the verge and/or under your drive - you won't be allowed to build over (or close to) HV cables, and having them moved is likely to be prohibitively expensive.

Also, comparing the size of your semi-pair to the others in the street, has yours already had a side extension? If so, you might find it harder than normal to get planning consent for an additional side extension, as councils tend to resist this because of the 'terracing effect'.  And if the property already has (say) four bedrooms then it may be more likely the council will require at least three off-street parking spaces provided within your property boundary, depending on local policy.

In other words, I wouldn't invest to much time and money into your plans without getting some of these big items ticked off - the land ownership question is one of those.

Hi there. I’ve taken the plunge and applied for planning permission to build on the driveway, the council have approved this.  

Can I ask if they would have considered if there was electrical wiring underneath the driveway before approving the plans? 

Also, I think I need to try and buy the land if I can’t obtain it via AP. Can the council charge what they want for it? 

Just two minor points. If you are applying for AP, then you don't need to have stayed at the house for 12 years. Time that the previous owner or owners of your property have used the piece of land in question counts. Can you contact them to provide evidence for any application?

For adverse possession to be possible, the possession needs to be adverse. I.e. without the consent of the landowner. I can't see anything in your posts that definitely shows that consent to use the land from the POV of a landowner was granted. But, if the council own the land and also gave permission for the driveway and building on that ... I think that needs to be given a little consideration as to whether AP is still possible. I think it most likely that it is possible, but I am not a lawyer (and this is not legal advice), and I am not sure personally. 

Thanks. Yes they have given planning permission for the initial driveway and now for a driveway. But worry about selling in the future so would prefer to own the land. Perhaps we need to try and buy it?

RHemmings

RebeccaCar said:

RHemmings said:

RebeccaCar said:

Section62 said:

RebeccaCar said:

One question though- does the white section immediately around my house mean that the highway restrictions won’t apply as much? Or is that wishful thinking!

Wishful thinking probably. I don't think too much can be read into either the OS or the highway plans.  The OS plan colouring is simply what the cartographer 'sees' when creating the dataset.  The highway plan is inconsistent in the way areas are shaded pink or left white. The fact the car park and other grassed areas are shaded pink would tend to suggest these areas of the estate generally have been transferred to highways rather than being retained by housing.  Looking at this plan alone, there is no logical reason why the grass verge next to yours (and also next to the property behind) wouldn't be highway if they are still in council ownership.

Looking more closely at the plan, I asked earlier whether there was an electricity substation nearby which might be why this land was there (i.e. providing a route for HV cables).  I think it likely the small square area in the corner of the car park is probably where the substation is.  Before getting too advanced with your plans you should find out whether there are electricity cables in the verge and/or under your drive - you won't be allowed to build over (or close to) HV cables, and having them moved is likely to be prohibitively expensive.

Also, comparing the size of your semi-pair to the others in the street, has yours already had a side extension? If so, you might find it harder than normal to get planning consent for an additional side extension, as councils tend to resist this because of the 'terracing effect'.  And if the property already has (say) four bedrooms then it may be more likely the council will require at least three off-street parking spaces provided within your property boundary, depending on local policy.

In other words, I wouldn't invest to much time and money into your plans without getting some of these big items ticked off - the land ownership question is one of those.

Hi there. I’ve taken the plunge and applied for planning permission to build on the driveway, the council have approved this.  

Can I ask if they would have considered if there was electrical wiring underneath the driveway before approving the plans? 

Also, I think I need to try and buy the land if I can’t obtain it via AP. Can the council charge what they want for it? 

Just two minor points. If you are applying for AP, then you don't need to have stayed at the house for 12 years. Time that the previous owner or owners of your property have used the piece of land in question counts. Can you contact them to provide evidence for any application?

For adverse possession to be possible, the possession needs to be adverse. I.e. without the consent of the landowner. I can't see anything in your posts that definitely shows that consent to use the land from the POV of a landowner was granted. But, if the council own the land and also gave permission for the driveway and building on that ... I think that needs to be given a little consideration as to whether AP is still possible. I think it most likely that it is possible, but I am not a lawyer (and this is not legal advice), and I am not sure personally. 

Thanks. Yes they have given planning permission for the initial driveway and now for a driveway. But worry about selling in the future so would prefer to own the land. Perhaps we need to try and buy it?

If I was in your situation, I would get legal advice from a solicitor specialising in AP first, to see if that's likely to succeed. Then, if the answer was 'no' or close enough to it, I'd approach the council to ask about buying it. Note: this is what I would do - that doesn't guarantee it's a sensible strategy likely to get the best overall result. 

RebeccaCar

RHemmings said:

RebeccaCar said:

RHemmings said:

RebeccaCar said:

Section62 said:

RebeccaCar said:

One question though- does the white section immediately around my house mean that the highway restrictions won’t apply as much? Or is that wishful thinking!

Wishful thinking probably. I don't think too much can be read into either the OS or the highway plans.  The OS plan colouring is simply what the cartographer 'sees' when creating the dataset.  The highway plan is inconsistent in the way areas are shaded pink or left white. The fact the car park and other grassed areas are shaded pink would tend to suggest these areas of the estate generally have been transferred to highways rather than being retained by housing.  Looking at this plan alone, there is no logical reason why the grass verge next to yours (and also next to the property behind) wouldn't be highway if they are still in council ownership.

Looking more closely at the plan, I asked earlier whether there was an electricity substation nearby which might be why this land was there (i.e. providing a route for HV cables).  I think it likely the small square area in the corner of the car park is probably where the substation is.  Before getting too advanced with your plans you should find out whether there are electricity cables in the verge and/or under your drive - you won't be allowed to build over (or close to) HV cables, and having them moved is likely to be prohibitively expensive.

Also, comparing the size of your semi-pair to the others in the street, has yours already had a side extension? If so, you might find it harder than normal to get planning consent for an additional side extension, as councils tend to resist this because of the 'terracing effect'.  And if the property already has (say) four bedrooms then it may be more likely the council will require at least three off-street parking spaces provided within your property boundary, depending on local policy.

In other words, I wouldn't invest to much time and money into your plans without getting some of these big items ticked off - the land ownership question is one of those.

Hi there. I’ve taken the plunge and applied for planning permission to build on the driveway, the council have approved this.  

Can I ask if they would have considered if there was electrical wiring underneath the driveway before approving the plans? 

Also, I think I need to try and buy the land if I can’t obtain it via AP. Can the council charge what they want for it? 

Just two minor points. If you are applying for AP, then you don't need to have stayed at the house for 12 years. Time that the previous owner or owners of your property have used the piece of land in question counts. Can you contact them to provide evidence for any application?

For adverse possession to be possible, the possession needs to be adverse. I.e. without the consent of the landowner. I can't see anything in your posts that definitely shows that consent to use the land from the POV of a landowner was granted. But, if the council own the land and also gave permission for the driveway and building on that ... I think that needs to be given a little consideration as to whether AP is still possible. I think it most likely that it is possible, but I am not a lawyer (and this is not legal advice), and I am not sure personally. 

Thanks. Yes they have given planning permission for the initial driveway and now for a driveway. But worry about selling in the future so would prefer to own the land. Perhaps we need to try and buy it?

If I was in your situation, I would get legal advice from a solicitor specialising in AP first, to see if that's likely to succeed. Then, if the answer was 'no' or close enough to it, I'd approach the council to ask about buying it. Note: this is what I would do - that doesn't guarantee it's a sensible strategy likely to get the best overall result. 

Yes this might be the best option. Such a minefield 😫

Section62

RebeccaCar said:

Section62 said:

Hi there. I’ve taken the plunge and applied for planning permission to build on the driveway, the council have approved this.  

Can I ask if they would have considered if there was electrical wiring underneath the driveway before approving the plans? 

Also, I think I need to try and buy the land if I can’t obtain it via AP. Can the council charge what they want for it? 

Very unlikely the planners would have considered any cables in deciding your planning application.  The utilities might be consulted where a proposed development might impact on strategic infrastructure, but at this scale the planners would assume that the developer would make the arrangements they need to do to be able to build - for example paying for any cables to be relocated.

Likewise, ownership of the land wouldn't be a factor the planners would consider in a case like this.  They would probably send a notification to the highways authority, but usually when looking at planning applications the highway authority will only consider the impact of the development on traffic and parking, in general it is unlikely the person working for the highway authority will notice the development is on highway land unless they are really on the ball.

Even if the different functions are all carried out by the same council, planning consent doesn't equal consent to occupy or build on land owned by the council (i.e. the issue RHemmings raised about AP - the planning consent has no impact on a possible AP claim)

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if the land is highway then it can't be AP'd.  You really need a solicitor with experience in this field to advise you on the chances of successfully claiming AP.

If the land belongs to the council and you want to buy it from them then they have to make sure they sell it at a price which is the best they can achieve in the public interest.  They don't have to sell, which means if you think the price they are asking is too high then they don't have to do anything.  That said, they can't name a silly price as they need to act reasonably in everything they do.

In terms of risk, if you build on the land and it turns out not to be yours then you run the risk of having to demolish your building.  On the flip side, if you ask the council to sell you the land they might realise it belongs to them and take action to remove you from it.  Other than the possibility of the land having utility equipment under it there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason for the council to keep the land (and the maintenance liability) if someone is willing to pay good money for it.  So all things considered, if it were me I think I'd approach the council to get them to confirm the boundary location and if necessary to negotiate what it would cost to buy any of the land which the council owned - I'd accept the risk they say 'no' to avoid the cost of building (and demolishing) on land I strongly suspected I didn't own.

RebeccaCar

Section62 said:

RebeccaCar said:

Section62 said:

Hi there. I’ve taken the plunge and applied for planning permission to build on the driveway, the council have approved this.  

Can I ask if they would have considered if there was electrical wiring underneath the driveway before approving the plans? 

Also, I think I need to try and buy the land if I can’t obtain it via AP. Can the council charge what they want for it? 

Very unlikely the planners would have considered any cables in deciding your planning application.  The utilities might be consulted where a proposed development might impact on strategic infrastructure, but at this scale the planners would assume that the developer would make the arrangements they need to do to be able to build - for example paying for any cables to be relocated.

Likewise, ownership of the land wouldn't be a factor the planners would consider in a case like this.  They would probably send a notification to the highways authority, but usually when looking at planning applications the highway authority will only consider the impact of the development on traffic and parking, in general it is unlikely the person working for the highway authority will notice the development is on highway land unless they are really on the ball.

Even if the different functions are all carried out by the same council, planning consent doesn't equal consent to occupy or build on land owned by the council (i.e. the issue RHemmings raised about AP - the planning consent has no impact on a possible AP claim)

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if the land is highway then it can't be AP'd.  You really need a solicitor with experience in this field to advise you on the chances of successfully claiming AP.

If the land belongs to the council and you want to buy it from them then they have to make sure they sell it at a price which is the best they can achieve in the public interest.  They don't have to sell, which means if you think the price they are asking is too high then they don't have to do anything.  That said, they can't name a silly price as they need to act reasonably in everything they do.

In terms of risk, if you build on the land and it turns out not to be yours then you run the risk of having to demolish your building.  On the flip side, if you ask the council to sell you the land they might realise it belongs to them and take action to remove you from it.  Other than the possibility of the land having utility equipment under it there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason for the council to keep the land (and the maintenance liability) if someone is willing to pay good money for it.  So all things considered, if it were me I think I'd approach the council to get them to confirm the boundary location and if necessary to negotiate what it would cost to buy any of the land which the council owned - I'd accept the risk they say 'no' to avoid the cost of building (and demolishing) on land I strongly suspected I didn't own.

Thanks so much. I’ll follow your advice ☺️