POPLA appeal lost over Grace Period

BrokenEggs

I have just received notification that my appeal to POPLA was rejected. 

In essence, I entered a private car park at Heybridge Basin in Essex which has recently switched to being run by Smart Parking with ANPR. After we parked and while my partner was unloading the kids, I went to pay at the meter, realised it was a RingGo payment method. I downloaded the app, re-registered my details and added my new car, and paid for two hours.

The RingGo app, as we all know, gives a handy countdown to the end of the session. Bearing this in mind, we went for a walk, returned, loaded the kids, deposited rubbish in the rubbish bin nearby and drove out the car park entrance.

I was shocked to receive a fine from Smart Parking in which they claimed we overstayed by 57 seconds. When I appealed, they changed their argument and stated that the timer runs time the car entered the site and ends when the car leaves the site. They said it was up to me to work out the time I entered and buy enough time to cover the whole stay. If they counted the entry time, we were indeed over the paid for time on site. They provided photos of the signs which support their allegations, in the small print.

I appealed to POPLA on the grounds that this was unfair, that the time before paying should not be counted and that, in any case, they chose to partner with RingGo which includes a system whereby one buys the parking period from the time of payment and has no opportunity to change the start time. In addition, the whole point of RingGo - its reason for being - is that it provides a countdown and ability to buy extra time of nearing the limit. I argued that, we left the site just seconds after the expiry time, so it is monstrous to send us a fine when the BPA Guidelines state we should have 10 minutes grace.

POPLA turned down the appeal, ruling that the grace period applies to the total stay, which they say in this case is contractually calculated to commence at car park entry and end at exit. They did not accept that the BPA guidelines state that the Grace period is intended to be added to the end of the stay and argued that the terms are clear on the signage. 

I find this baffling and wholly contrary to common sense and logic. Although the terms are there in black and white, I feel a Court would agree with me that the use of RingGo materially alters the contract because any reasonable person would rely on the RingGo end of session time rather than do some magical calculation in their head based on when they entered the car park.

This is a pain. Should I battle on?

Le_Kirk

POPLA decisions are not binding on the motorist.  Wait patiently for the inevitable tranche of debt collector letters (ignore or at least, take no action) and the Letter before/of Claim (do not ignore) and read the second post of the NEWBIE sticky.

Grizebeck

Ignore anything from DRP/CST law
Shame you didnt come here first as this firm is so easy to beat
There will be no "battling on" to do

tacpot12

I think a court would agree with you. It is illogical because if you bought a ticket from the machine and paid with cash or a card, you would be entitled to the grace period - the ticket you would have been issued with by the machine WOULD have had the time that you were allowed to park until stamped on it, and this would typically be two hours from the time you paid, NOT two hours less the 10 minute grace period - but you would need to check this. For the cost of a two hour ticket I think I would buy the ticket and take a photo with a SmartPhone that adds the date/time and location to the photo as metadata, just so that you can prove that such tickets are issued for two hours plus some grace time. You can work out if it is worth doing this by asking if you can look at someone else's ticket after they have just bought it. (Just say you are in dispute with the car park operator and would like to see the time that the ticket is issued for vs. the time that the machine thinks it is now.)   

If the parking company didn't draw your attention to the fact that paying by RingGo would not entitle you to the same grace period as paying by cash/card, this seems to be an unfair term in their contract. That fact that you paid and were only just over means that this should go very badly for them if they take it to court, as I think any judge would say that your appeal should have been allowed  and hence they are wasting the court's time. 

You should also write to your MP. The more they appreciate the fact that these companies do not operate a meaninful appeals process, so sooner they will be regulated properly.   

B789

The time will come when these scammers will be forced to link all these systems together. There's no excuse that their ANPR data is not automatically checked by their payment system for verification purposes.

If payment is made within whatever consideration time is allowed, between ANPR first registration and the time of payment, then that is when the "contract" is agreed and the period of parking begins. In this case, the period of parking began when the Ringo app accepted the payment and started the countdown timer.

If the PPC want to play silly buggers, you can even go back to the car park and video yourself reading ALL the Ts&Cs and see how long it takes you to do so, clearly and not rushed. I'll bet that very few if anyone can do it in less than the stupid BPA 5 minute suggested consideration period.

If ANPR is going to be used, it should be solely for registration purposes and even then, we all know how it can get it wrong.

As @Grizebeck suggests above, get on with your life and ignore everything that will come flooding your way unless it's an LoC which could be up to 6 years from the date of the parking event. Then come back here.

BrokenEggs

Grizebeck said:

Ignore anything from DRP/CST law
Shame you didnt come here first as this firm is so easy to beat
There will be no "battling on" to do

Thanks for the reassurance. 

I appreciate the wealth of experience on here. I’m not sure how it could have helped thus far, as I think my initial appeal was factually and legally well written (I used to be a litigation lawyer) and my POPLA appeal was similarly carefully worded. 

That said, my query at this stage was aimed to find out a) whether a battle is worth joining when they are relying on a contractual terms that is in the terms and conditions, even if it is crazy and b) whether anyone has argued this issue of the ANPR times vs RingGo app end of session.

I’m obviously fairly confident of the case and representing myself, except that if I have to take time off work to deal with a court case I would lose far more than the fine and I’m not sure I’d get it back in costs.

Grizebeck

Irrelevant as nothing else will happen

B789

Almost ALL the victims of this scam who defend claims like this with the advice from the experts on this forum are NOT legally trained in any way. The contract law used by the PPCs is a minefield in itself and most people who are legally trained do not know how to deal with it including judges!

As you have found out already, a "factually and legally well-written", carefully worded appeal composed by an ex-litigation lawyer means nothing when dealing with the bottom-dwelling, intellectually challenged people involved in this scam industry.

As @Grizebeck has advised above, with the combination of scammers DRP/CST Law, nothing will come of this.

Coupon-mad

You'd have won, had you come here first.

That's the point Grizebeck was making.  Appeals done the right way are 100% winnable v Smart; you could not have lost.  All you had to do was appeal as registered keeper and not talk about the story of what happened.

This is why the NEWBIES thread has a template appeal, to stop people shooting their toes off by saying they were the driver.

Next time please come here first!  Never write your own factual appeal that says who was driving.

The only 'pain' is just ignoring a series of daft £170 demands. Don't panic and ring debt firms (LOL!!) do not engage unless you get a LBC or court claim (where you would win).

Do not let any well-meaning family member pay it to make it go away.  Nothing will happen anyway.

BrokenEggs

Thanks for the advice everyone.

BrokenEggs

By the way, bearing mind the 6 year limitation and LoC issue, what happens if they send it long after we’ve left this rental address?