Alternative Fuels Payments

Pmatt

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year. Today's budget suggests that ALL households will again benefit from the fuel subsidy for another 3 months. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. I appreciate that most people in towns and cities have access to gas and that it is expedient to apply a subsidy that can be easily managed through their metered billing. But for those of us who have to use alternative fuels it seems ironic that we pay for the gas subsidy through our taxation but are not included for the subsidy.

Spoonie_Turtle

Pmatt said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year. Today's budget suggests that ALL households will again benefit from the fuel subsidy for another 3 months. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. I appreciate that most people in towns and cities have access to gas and that it is expedient to apply a subsidy that can be easily managed through their metered billing. But for those of us who have to use alternative fuels it seems ironic that we pay for the gas subsidy through our taxation but are not included for the subsidy.

Your electricity is still subsidised, and going into warmer months usage requirements of both gas and alternative heating fuels should in theory be decreasing.

dunstonh

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year.

So, you received it within the expected timescale.

. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. 

But are still very much cheaper than gas and not far off their normal price.
Oil, for example is 65ppl at the moment.   

So, why do you believe alternative fuels should get further support?

kar999

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Pmatt said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year. Today's budget suggests that ALL households will again benefit from the fuel subsidy for another 3 months. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. I appreciate that most people in towns and cities have access to gas and that it is expedient to apply a subsidy that can be easily managed through their metered billing. But for those of us who have to use alternative fuels it seems ironic that we pay for the gas subsidy through our taxation but are not included for the subsidy.

Your electricity is still subsidised, and going into warmer months usage requirements of both gas and alternative heating fuels should in theory be decreasing.

dunstonh said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year.

So, you received it within the expected timescale.

. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. 

But are still very much cheaper than gas and not far off their normal price.
Oil, for example is 65ppl at the moment.   

So, why do you believe alternative fuels should get further support?

Wood and Coal certainly haven't come down in price.  

MattMattMattUK

kar999 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Pmatt said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year. Today's budget suggests that ALL households will again benefit from the fuel subsidy for another 3 months. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. I appreciate that most people in towns and cities have access to gas and that it is expedient to apply a subsidy that can be easily managed through their metered billing. But for those of us who have to use alternative fuels it seems ironic that we pay for the gas subsidy through our taxation but are not included for the subsidy.

Your electricity is still subsidised, and going into warmer months usage requirements of both gas and alternative heating fuels should in theory be decreasing.

dunstonh said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year.

So, you received it within the expected timescale.

. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. 

But are still very much cheaper than gas and not far off their normal price.
Oil, for example is 65ppl at the moment.   

So, why do you believe alternative fuels should get further support?

Wood and Coal certainly haven't come down in price.  

Where do wood and coal sit per kWh in relation to other fuels though? Fuel oil and LPG are currently around 25% cheaper than mains gas and have been 20% cheaper than mains gas all winter. 

kar999

MattMattMattUK said:

kar999 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Pmatt said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year. Today's budget suggests that ALL households will again benefit from the fuel subsidy for another 3 months. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. I appreciate that most people in towns and cities have access to gas and that it is expedient to apply a subsidy that can be easily managed through their metered billing. But for those of us who have to use alternative fuels it seems ironic that we pay for the gas subsidy through our taxation but are not included for the subsidy.

Your electricity is still subsidised, and going into warmer months usage requirements of both gas and alternative heating fuels should in theory be decreasing.

dunstonh said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year.

So, you received it within the expected timescale.

. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. 

But are still very much cheaper than gas and not far off their normal price.
Oil, for example is 65ppl at the moment.   

So, why do you believe alternative fuels should get further support?

Wood and Coal certainly haven't come down in price.  

Where do wood and coal sit per kWh in relation to other fuels though? Fuel oil and LPG are currently around 25% cheaper than mains gas and have been 20% cheaper than mains gas all winter. 

Not sure about heat efficiency but a 25KG of smokeless coal has gone up from £9.50 (pre crisis) to £16 per bag.
A net of hardwood kiln dried logs was £3.49 now £6 99. Obviously cheaper in bulk but still much higher due to kiln costs.  
No sign of either going down in price and if you rely on solid fuel for heating, heat efficiency is irrelevant. The prices have gone up and stayed up.

MattMattMattUK

kar999 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

kar999 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Pmatt said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year. Today's budget suggests that ALL households will again benefit from the fuel subsidy for another 3 months. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. I appreciate that most people in towns and cities have access to gas and that it is expedient to apply a subsidy that can be easily managed through their metered billing. But for those of us who have to use alternative fuels it seems ironic that we pay for the gas subsidy through our taxation but are not included for the subsidy.

Your electricity is still subsidised, and going into warmer months usage requirements of both gas and alternative heating fuels should in theory be decreasing.

dunstonh said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year.

So, you received it within the expected timescale.

. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. 

But are still very much cheaper than gas and not far off their normal price.
Oil, for example is 65ppl at the moment.   

So, why do you believe alternative fuels should get further support?

Wood and Coal certainly haven't come down in price.  

Where do wood and coal sit per kWh in relation to other fuels though? Fuel oil and LPG are currently around 25% cheaper than mains gas and have been 20% cheaper than mains gas all winter. 

Not sure about heat efficiency but a 25KG of smokeless coal has gone up from £9.50 (pre crisis) to £16 per bag.

Having done a bit more research in terms of raw heat at 9.2kWh per KG, what works out at around 6.9p per kWh in raw terms multi-fuel stoves tend to operate at around 87% so on that basis you are looking at around 7.9p per kWh of useful heat based on £16 per bag so significantly cheaper than mains gas.

kar999 said:

A net of hardwood kiln dried logs was £3.49 now £6 99. Obviously cheaper in bulk but still much higher due to kiln costs.  

Based on what I can find online, and there will be some variation, but by buying it per crate, based on kiln dried hardwood it looks like the cost is 8.3p per kWh or 9.6p per kWh when accounting for efficiency. 

For comparison mains gas is around 10.3p per kWh in raw terms, based on a condensing boiler around 11.2p per kWh of useful heat. 

kar999 said:

No sign of either going down in price and if you rely on solid fuel for heating, heat efficiency is irrelevant. The prices have gone up and stayed up.

They are both cheaper than mains gas though, 19.4% cheaper than mains gas in the case of wood and 33% cheaper in the case of coal/smokeless fuels, that has a significant impact if one is talking about further subsidy and attempting to equalise energy costs. 

kar999

MattMattMattUK said:

kar999 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

kar999 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Pmatt said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year. Today's budget suggests that ALL households will again benefit from the fuel subsidy for another 3 months. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. I appreciate that most people in towns and cities have access to gas and that it is expedient to apply a subsidy that can be easily managed through their metered billing. But for those of us who have to use alternative fuels it seems ironic that we pay for the gas subsidy through our taxation but are not included for the subsidy.

Your electricity is still subsidised, and going into warmer months usage requirements of both gas and alternative heating fuels should in theory be decreasing.

dunstonh said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year.

So, you received it within the expected timescale.

. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. 

But are still very much cheaper than gas and not far off their normal price.
Oil, for example is 65ppl at the moment.   

So, why do you believe alternative fuels should get further support?

Wood and Coal certainly haven't come down in price.  

Where do wood and coal sit per kWh in relation to other fuels though? Fuel oil and LPG are currently around 25% cheaper than mains gas and have been 20% cheaper than mains gas all winter. 

Not sure about heat efficiency but a 25KG of smokeless coal has gone up from £9.50 (pre crisis) to £16 per bag.

Having done a bit more research in terms of raw heat at 9.2kWh per KG with a cost per kWh of 6.9p per kWh multi-fuel stoves tend to operate at around 87% so on that basis you are looking at around 7.9p per kWh of useful heat based on £16 per bag so significantly cheaper than mains gas.

kar999 said:

A net of hardwood kiln dried logs was £3.49 now £6 99. Obviously cheaper in bulk but still much higher due to kiln costs.  

Based on what I can find online, and there will be some variation, but by buying it per crate, based on kiln dried hardwood it looks like the cost is 8.3p per kWh or 9.6p per kWh when accounting for efficiency. 

For comparison mains gas is around 10.3p per kWh in raw terms, based on a condensing boiler around 11.2p per kWh of useful heat. 

kar999 said:

No sign of either going down in price and if you rely on solid fuel for heating, heat efficiency is irrelevant. The prices have gone up and stayed up.

They are both cheaper than mains gas though, 19.4% cheaper than mains gas in the case of wood and 33% cheaper in the case of coal/smokeless fuels, that has a significant impact if one is talking about further subsidy and attempting to equalise energy costs. 

I totally agree with your cost v heat efficiency discussion. But you can't equalise energy costs if the supply availability is not equalised. A family without gas and an open fire or stove may have a cheaper system to run but have still faced a very significant increase in their heating bills. Going forward, gas & electricity prices are falling, coal & wood are highly unlikely to fall. 

The subsidies are about protecting people from fuel hardship/poverty not who's got the most cost efficient heating system surely?

MattMattMattUK

kar999 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

kar999 said:

MattMattMattUK said:

kar999 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Pmatt said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year. Today's budget suggests that ALL households will again benefit from the fuel subsidy for another 3 months. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. I appreciate that most people in towns and cities have access to gas and that it is expedient to apply a subsidy that can be easily managed through their metered billing. But for those of us who have to use alternative fuels it seems ironic that we pay for the gas subsidy through our taxation but are not included for the subsidy.

Your electricity is still subsidised, and going into warmer months usage requirements of both gas and alternative heating fuels should in theory be decreasing.

dunstonh said:

I have only just received the Alternative Fuels Payment from my electricity supplier that was promised back in September last year.

So, you received it within the expected timescale.

. But there does not appear to be any further inclusion of those of us who do not have access to a gas supply and rely on alternative fuels such as oil, LPG, wood or coal which have all increased in price. 

But are still very much cheaper than gas and not far off their normal price.
Oil, for example is 65ppl at the moment.   

So, why do you believe alternative fuels should get further support?

Wood and Coal certainly haven't come down in price.  

Where do wood and coal sit per kWh in relation to other fuels though? Fuel oil and LPG are currently around 25% cheaper than mains gas and have been 20% cheaper than mains gas all winter. 

Not sure about heat efficiency but a 25KG of smokeless coal has gone up from £9.50 (pre crisis) to £16 per bag.

Having done a bit more research in terms of raw heat at 9.2kWh per KG with a cost per kWh of 6.9p per kWh multi-fuel stoves tend to operate at around 87% so on that basis you are looking at around 7.9p per kWh of useful heat based on £16 per bag so significantly cheaper than mains gas.

kar999 said:

A net of hardwood kiln dried logs was £3.49 now £6 99. Obviously cheaper in bulk but still much higher due to kiln costs.  

Based on what I can find online, and there will be some variation, but by buying it per crate, based on kiln dried hardwood it looks like the cost is 8.3p per kWh or 9.6p per kWh when accounting for efficiency. 

For comparison mains gas is around 10.3p per kWh in raw terms, based on a condensing boiler around 11.2p per kWh of useful heat. 

kar999 said:

No sign of either going down in price and if you rely on solid fuel for heating, heat efficiency is irrelevant. The prices have gone up and stayed up.

They are both cheaper than mains gas though, 19.4% cheaper than mains gas in the case of wood and 33% cheaper in the case of coal/smokeless fuels, that has a significant impact if one is talking about further subsidy and attempting to equalise energy costs. 

I totally agree with your cost v heat efficiency discussion. But you can't equalise energy costs if the supply availability is not equalised. A family without gas and an open fire or stove may have a cheaper system to run but have still faced a very significant increase in their heating bills. Going forward, gas & electricity prices are falling, coal & wood are highly unlikely to fall. 

The subsidies are about protecting people from fuel hardship/poverty not who's got the most cost efficient heating system surely?

Everyone's bills went up, that is why everyone got help, but that was to bring the energy expenditure of the household down to a level that was deemed reasonable, the EPG was one component of that, as was the AFP, however the AFP actually brings a cost which is already well below the EPG even lower. Based on averages those using alternative fuels are paying out less of their income than those on mains gas, which is why it is relevant compared to hardship/poverty. Gas would have to fall 33% to reach the same parity as coal and it does not look like that will happen for years, if it ever happens. 

If an average household on gas is paying 6% of their income on energy and an average household on alternative fuels is paying 4% then it does not make sense to further subsidise the 4% down to 3% if your argument is one about hardship/poverty. 

kar999

^  One could argue those using solid fuel may well be in older less well insulated properties. One size fits all & averages are never going to be equitable for everyone just as the £2500 cap is meaningless for anyone not classed as the "average".

An interesting debate, but this, like covid support, leads to many unnecessary winners and many unfair losers.

mrmcc

I received a voucher £200 for alternative fuel, my issue is i dont think i qualify, i have no gas but do have storage heaters (although cant afford to use them) i do have coal fire that heats the hot water. should i still cash it or will i be made to return it.