APCOA Popla ANPR Fine Salisbury Train Station Car Park

KeithP

Just file a PoPLA appeal.
Doesn't matter whether you win or lose, give them some work to do.

lewthewho

KeithP said:

Just file a PoPLA appeal.
Doesn't matter whether you win or lose, give them some work to do.

Yea... haha just didnt want to screw myself with that comment. But to me seems like ever mounting evidence that they are running a racket.... I can remove and submit without I guess and include it when it comes to additional evidence ... 

B789

lewthewho said:
What do you think about my Parking/payment partner point? (its in additional to the slam dunk 1/2)

No idea. As I mentioned, I haven't read it. However, by my calculation you are now on day 34 which means that it is probably too late to submit your POPLA appeal. If the site lets you, just get it done. It matters not what you have in your appeal for now. You wanted them to receive the appeal by day 33 which would have meant that it would take up to another 28 days for the PPC to respond to your appeal points and then however long again for you to rebut their points before however long it then took a POPLA teaboy or assessor to make an assessment and a decision. However, I fear that you have blown a chunk of the time away that was available for stringing this one out to 6 months.

lewthewho

B789 said:

lewthewho said:
What do you think about my Parking/payment partner point? (its in additional to the slam dunk 1/2)

No idea. As I mentioned, I haven't read it. However, by my calculation you are now on day 34 which means that it is probably too late to submit your POPLA appeal. If the site lets you, just get it done. It matters not what you have in your appeal for now. You wanted them to receive the appeal by day 33 which would have meant that it would take up to another 28 days for the PPC to respond to your appeal points and then however long again for you to rebut their points before however long it then took a POPLA teaboy or assessor to make an assessment and a decision. However, I fear that you have blown a chunk of the time away that was available for stringing this one out to 6 months.

I just submitted, it allowed me to do so hopefully that doesn't cause any/many challenges.

Not sure what would happen if the appeal wasn't considered "Valid"... but fingers crossed dont have to cross that bridge.

Umkomaas

lewthewho said:

B789 said:

lewthewho said:
What do you think about my Parking/payment partner point? (its in additional to the slam dunk 1/2)

No idea. As I mentioned, I haven't read it. However, by my calculation you are now on day 34 which means that it is probably too late to submit your POPLA appeal. If the site lets you, just get it done. It matters not what you have in your appeal for now. You wanted them to receive the appeal by day 33 which would have meant that it would take up to another 28 days for the PPC to respond to your appeal points and then however long again for you to rebut their points before however long it then took a POPLA teaboy or assessor to make an assessment and a decision. However, I fear that you have blown a chunk of the time away that was available for stringing this one out to 6 months.

I just submitted, it allowed me to do so hopefully that doesn't cause any/many challenges.

Not sure what would happen if the appeal wasn't considered "Valid"... but fingers crossed dont have to cross that bridge.

Good. Nothing will 'happen' if the appeal wasn't 'considered valid' (whatever that means!). Wait to see what POPLA says, but really, if they find against you (or say you're out of time), ignore it and just get on with your life. 

For a penalty charge, only the TOC can prosecute you through the Mags Court (not APCOA 'on behalf of'). Any penalty imposed on you by the Mags doesn't go to the TOC, and certainly not to APCOA, but rather to the Exchequer. You need to ask yourself, other than Jeremy Hunt, who has any interest in prosecuting this case against you?  You need to get your head around this stuff so you're not panicked into doing anything we don't advise. 

Coupon-mad

There is no slam dunk win for a railway penalty notice.  You will likely lose at POPLA because all POFA arguments are irrelevant to a PENALTY but hey, it will be close enough to the 6 months by then.

Nothing you can add now but that appeal didn't seem to include the usual 'unclear signage' point.

lewthewho

APCOA submitted the evidence pack on the Popla portal, its obviously fairly long and includes pictures of all their signage at Salisbury train station and screenshots of all the visits my Car has been at that site and paid. 

Interestingly they show no record of payment but I also have an email and screenshot from my Ringo App + Their Customer team saying they see no session/parking on that day. Because the site uses ANPR its very common for me to go and leave and pay as/after ive left to get the right amount. 

Waiting until day 7 to respond but I've had a look at some other POPLA replies, realistically my argument is with the above but i'll contest/not pay regardless... 

Coupon-mad

You only have six days not seven.  The first day is the day you got POPLA's email.  You don't count on a week.

If they've shown no payment legs from that day then I would say so.  Nothing proves that the payment methods were working normally.

lewthewho

Their reply is below, they did post screenshot of the payments made on that particular day as well as screenshot of my car parking history at that location all with payments made. In my mind that strengthens my argument that i may best efforts to pay as per my normal history. Ringo Support/email/app screenshots I can post should all show that. 






At the time this notice was issued, this vehicle was monitored by ANPR to have entered the car park on 26/01/2023 at 09:03 and exited at 16:51 on that day, remailing on site for over 7 hours, having parked without a valid parking/RingGo session as instructed. The appellant appealed to APCOA, stating that they deny liability.

The appeal to APCOA which was rejected as: a) A valid payment allocated to the VRM in question was not detected by the ANPR cameras for this vehicle to be parked on the day in question, through the RingGo payment application.

 b) As this site is monitored by ANPR, payment must be made as instructed upon the tariff board displayed within. The payment must be allocated to the VRM of the vehicle being parked.

 c) The contravention is ‘Use of Private Car Park without making a valid payment’. The vehicle was on site for over 7 hours over the allowed 20 minutes to drop off and pickup. As the vehicle was on site for over 7 hours, a payment to park should have been made.

 d) The appellant does not claim to that a payment for parking was made. However, to confirm this, below is a screenshot of the RingGo website, confirming that there was no payment made for this vehicle to be parked at this location on the date in question. 

 e) In response to the appellants comments, we can confirm that this Penalty Notice was not issued under the conditions laid out in the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012. Please note, this is a Penalty Notice issued on Railway land as a breach of the terms and conditions of parking has occurred, and you have confirmed to us that you are the registered keeper of the vehicle in question and therefore you are liable for this Notice.

 f) This is a Penalty Notice issued on Railway land as a breach of the terms and conditions of parking has occurred, and we have confirmed that they are the registered keeper of the vehicle in question and therefore liable for this Notice. The Railways byelaws state: In England and Wales (i) The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area. The owner, in relation to a vehicle, means the person by whom the vehicle is kept, which in the case of a vehicle registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22) is presumed to be the person in whose name the vehicle is registered. If the Penalty Notice remains unpaid, APCOA Parking is entitled to pursue the appellant as the keeper through the Magistrates Court by way of a private criminal prosecution for payment of the Penalty Notice.

 g) The claim in question is based in contract law. When the vehicle was parked on site, a parking contract was entered into with APCOA Parking. As part of this contract, it was agreed that the charge detailed on the signage would be paid should the vehicle be parked in breach of the terms and conditions of parking.

 h) The appellant claims that a compliant Notice to Keeper was never served. Please find a copy of the Notice to Keeper in Section C of this pack.

 i) The appellant has mentioned the RingGo payment system. Please see the below report showing that there were no issues with the system on the date in question and that 142 payments were made to park at this location using the RingGo system. 

 j) The appellant is aware of the need to purchase a valid RingGo session as they have previously purchased sessions for this location. Please see below. You will note that no contact has been made on 26/01/2023.

k) The appellant claims they want to see proof that APCOA Parking has the required authority to operate and issue Penalty Notices at this site. The landowner’s authority letter is included in Section F of this evidence pack confirming that APCOA do have authority to issue penalty notices at this location. This has been redacted to obscure some data due to GDPR.

 l) It is the driver’s responsibility to source, read and understand the terms of parking displayed prior to leaving their vehicle unattended. The vehicle should have left the parking location if this was not possible.

 m) When parking on private land, it is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that they have sought out, read, and understood the terms and conditions of parking before the vehicle is left unattended on site and a parking contract formed. It is the obligation of the operator to ensure that they have afforded the motorist the opportunity to do so. The operator has fulfilled this obligation, as can be seen from the evidence submitted in this pack. The motorist had parked in close proximity to two of the many and prominent terms and conditions signs in place.

 n) As previously stated by POPLA, a motorist does not need to have read the terms and conditions in order to enter into a parking contract. The requirement is only that they are afforded the opportunity to do so:

 o) It is the driver’s responsibility to source, read and understand the terms of parking displayed prior to leaving their vehicle unattended. The vehicle should have left the parking location if this was not possible

Coupon-mad

This is contradictory and misleading:

"If the Penalty Notice remains unpaid, APCOA Parking is entitled to pursue the appellant as the keeper through the Magistrates Court by way of a private criminal prosecution for payment of the Penalty Notice."

but is it a penalty?

"(g). The claim in question is based in contract law."

OK so it's not a penalty!  IT CAN'T BE BOTH CONTRACT LAW AND PENALTY LAW.

I'd point that out in your comments and say APCOA have breached the BPA CoP Annex about Railway Byelaws (quote it).