What counts as 'returning the keys'...

propertyrental

Posting keys through the letterbox of the house is always a dumb move. Had a handful of tenants do just this and there were no spares so a locksmith was called and they ended up paying for it.

theartfullodger said:

user1977 said:

So how does the landlord determine whether the tenant has vacated, without the usual "quiet enjoyment" concerns about letting themselves in etc?

Another member posted """Posting keys through the letterbox of the house is always a dumb move. Had a handful of tenants do just this and there were no spares so a locksmith was called and they ended up paying for it. """  A landlord had no copy keys? IMHO an own goal.  Were I that tenant I'd be very happy to decline to pay and/or be taken to court in confident view LL would lose...

How often on here have we advised Ts to change the locks, usually for specific reasons but T might change them simply for security against previous Ts or others who might sets. And then forget, or decide, not to change them back.

theartfullodger

silvercar said:

theartfullodger said:

user1977 said:

So how does the landlord determine whether the tenant has vacated, without the usual "quiet enjoyment" concerns about letting themselves in etc?

Landlord, having obviously done training in being a landlord & being aware tenant may leave BY end of tenancy without giving notice would have asked tenant, calmly & politely, what their plans were.  

....and what would you have done if you had had no reply? After all these are tenants who think that putting the keys through the letter box constitutes ending the tenancy. They may also be the tenants that don't reply to requests for information? After all, there is no legal obligation on tenants to give notice at the end of the fixed term, so maybe they just decline to communicate. You may say that is their right.

What would I have done?? Assuming this is England, served a notice of inspection for the day after the end of tenancy, popped round and knocked, calm & polite, on the door.  If no reply, wait another minute, knock again, loudly.  Wait another minute, if no response let yourself in. Shout "hello" loudly several times.  If asked to go do so, calm & polite. 

See LL& T Act 1985 s11(6)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70/section/11

"""" (6)  In a lease in which the lessor’s repairing covenant is implied there is also implied a covenant by the lessee that the lessor, or any person authorised by him in writing, may at reasonable times of the day and on giving 24 hours’ notice in writing to the occupier, enter the premises comprised in the lease for the purpose of viewing their condition and state of repair.  """"

it ain't hard...

Yes I do say that's their right. 

Scotland & NI different...obvs...

Emily_Joy

housebuyer143 said:

Posting keys through the letterbox of the house is always a dumb move. Had a handful of tenants do just this and there were no spares so a locksmith was called and they ended up paying for it.

Neither landlord nor EA have got spares? Are you for real? So, if the tenant goes for holidays to Greece for a week, during this week for no apparent reason a pipe goes burst and the neighbours alert the landlord... What is the landlord to do? Call locksmith and blame tenants for going on holidays? 

user1977

Emily_Joy said:

housebuyer143 said:

Posting keys through the letterbox of the house is always a dumb move. Had a handful of tenants do just this and there were no spares so a locksmith was called and they ended up paying for it.

What is the landlord to do? Call locksmith and blame tenants for going on holidays? 

Yes, it would be reasonable to force entry in that sort of circumstance.

Alderbank

Emily_Joy said:

housebuyer143 said:

Posting keys through the letterbox of the house is always a dumb move. Had a handful of tenants do just this and there were no spares so a locksmith was called and they ended up paying for it.

Neither landlord nor EA have got spares? Are you for real? 

Emily, it's quite common for tenants to change the locks. In fact it is often recommended on these very pages (change them back when tenancy ends).

The landlord wouldn't know until a pipe bursts while the tenant is on holiday in Greece...

Gavin83

theartfullodger said:

silvercar said:

theartfullodger said:

user1977 said:

So how does the landlord determine whether the tenant has vacated, without the usual "quiet enjoyment" concerns about letting themselves in etc?

Landlord, having obviously done training in being a landlord & being aware tenant may leave BY end of tenancy without giving notice would have asked tenant, calmly & politely, what their plans were.  

....and what would you have done if you had had no reply? After all these are tenants who think that putting the keys through the letter box constitutes ending the tenancy. They may also be the tenants that don't reply to requests for information? After all, there is no legal obligation on tenants to give notice at the end of the fixed term, so maybe they just decline to communicate. You may say that is their right.

What would I have done?? Assuming this is England, served a notice of inspection for the day after the end of tenancy, popped round and knocked, calm & polite, on the door.  If no reply, wait another minute, knock again, loudly.  Wait another minute, if no response let yourself in. Shout "hello" loudly several times.  If asked to go do so, calm & polite. 

See LL& T Act 1985 s11(6)
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70/section/11

"""" (6)  In a lease in which the lessor’s repairing covenant is implied there is also implied a covenant by the lessee that the lessor, or any person authorised by him in writing, may at reasonable times of the day and on giving 24 hours’ notice in writing to the occupier, enter the premises comprised in the lease for the purpose of viewing their condition and state of repair.  """"

it ain't hard...

Yes I do say that's their right. 

Scotland & NI different...obvs...

You have no right to enter the property for an inspection. The tenant can refuse and their right to quiet enjoyment trumps your right to an inspection.

Anyway let’s say you enter and they aren’t there, what then? You can’t re-let the property. If the original tenants come back and say they never served notice then you’ve got an illegal eviction scenario on your hands. After all you as a landlord can’t assume the tenancy has ended just because the fixed term has ended.

Emily_Joy

Alderbank said:

Emily_Joy said:

housebuyer143 said:

Posting keys through the letterbox of the house is always a dumb move. Had a handful of tenants do just this and there were no spares so a locksmith was called and they ended up paying for it.

Neither landlord nor EA have got spares? Are you for real? 

Emily, it's quite common for tenants to change the locks. In fact it is often recommended on these very pages (change them back when tenancy ends).

The landlord wouldn't know until a pipe bursts while the tenant is on holiday in Greece...

Dunno. I have been renting for about 12 years both in the UK and abroad (this includes time at uni) and always ensured that the landlord and a friend/work colleague have a set of keys in case of emergency...

user1977

Emily_Joy said:

Alderbank said:

Emily_Joy said:

housebuyer143 said:

Posting keys through the letterbox of the house is always a dumb move. Had a handful of tenants do just this and there were no spares so a locksmith was called and they ended up paying for it.

Neither landlord nor EA have got spares? Are you for real? 

Emily, it's quite common for tenants to change the locks. In fact it is often recommended on these very pages (change them back when tenancy ends).

The landlord wouldn't know until a pipe bursts while the tenant is on holiday in Greece...

Dunno. I have been renting for about 12 years both in the UK and abroad (this includes time at uni) and always ensured that the landlord and a friend/work colleague have a set of keys in case of emergency...

It does of course make sense for someone you trust to have spare keys, but for many tenants, that doesn't include the landlord!

zoej47

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/79885644#Comment_79885644

Sometimes in up to the landlord to change them, it's a bit of a grey area

propertyrental

There's a difference between changing the locks between tenants (good practice) which is a simple & cheap DIY job providing the door is open / openable, and getting a locksmith out because the door cannot be opened.

Also depends why LL/agent does not have keys. Most sensible LLs keep a copy, but if eg the tenant has changed the lock (yes, that's another whole topic), or lost their key and borrowed the LL's then failed to return it, then responsibilty for the locksmith cost falls tothe tenant