Who can I claim from?

Leavemealone

Long story which I could go into later if required.  August last year a medical company came to install a replacement stairlift. I am still waiting for it to be working. 

It was authorised via a Council disabilities grant. 3 quotes were obtained through Council and when grant was approved I was not given a choice the Council told me which one I would be getting. I have now told suppliers to remove as not fit for purpose as they have attempted alterations to make it work but they cannot telling me the only way is to have structural changes to my home   Not getting any help from the council I paid a one off fee to see a solicitor who wrote one letter and have just told me the Council are having nothing to Do with it saying the Contract is between me and the suppliers. I cannot afford any further legal advice and do not know where else to turn. 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.   I am 76 disabled female with various home adaptations and have never had these problems before. I have already fallen downstairs since having no lift making my disabilities worse. 
  

tacpot12

I'm sorry to hear you are having these problems. I would say that you should get hold of the contract (if you don't already have it) and check to see who the parties to the contract are. If the Council are the customer, you can look to them to resolve the matter. You may need to make a formal complaint to the  council (if they are the customer named on the contract), and I would also complain to your local councillor.

If the contract names you as the customer, you have all the consumer rights offered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015. This means that the stairlift should be fit for purpose. 

Do you own your own home? If so, do you have home insurance and do you have Legal Expenses cover? If you do, you can call the legal helpline provided by your insurers. If you don't have legal expenses cover, you need to find a free source of legal advice. You might call Age UK to see if they can get you any legal advice, and you might try some local solicitors.

Some solicitors will give you an initial consultation meeting for free where you can set out your case against the suppliers. I think there is a chance that they might  take your case on pro-bono (i.e. for free). They might take it on on a no-win/no-fee basis, but you need to be very careful that you don't agree to them taking any other than a token payment (say £200), and that this is the most you will pay, even if you instruct them to stop working on the case. (Many people get into a mess because they withdraw from the case once it starts to get hard, and the contract with the solicitor usually says that they have to pay all the solicitors costs upto the point they withdraw).

Any money that is recovered would need to be used to buy a stairlift from another supplier, but at least you would have the choice if the recovered money is paid back to you. I don't see how the council can argue that it shoudl be returned to them, when they haven't taken any risk in getting the money back.

One issue I haven't discussed is whether any stairlift would require the structural alterations that the supplier says are required. I think I would try to involve the council in reviewing this statement from the supplier, and complain to your councillor if they will not. If there is no stairlift that can be installed, I stil think a judge would order the money refunded as the supplier should have had enough professional knowledge to know that structural alterations would be necessary - if they didn't it suggests their site survey was inadequate. 

One compromise might be for the supplier to pay for the structural alterations, but if it is a home you own you might not want this, and if you rent, the landlord would need to get permission, and would probably want their own structural engineer to review the proposals. Again, the supplier should cover the cost of this as it is their mistake. 

Leavemealone

Thank you for your reply.  I will try and get a copy of the contract , I certainly do not remember ever seeing one only the application paperwork for the grant. 

This is the third stairlift I have required and there is no structural reason only that their survey missed some pipes at the bottom of the stairs so it does not fit. They noticed that even before they ripped out the existing lift but did it anyway. 

The lift was never fully installed because there was also a software fault which again they were aware of prior to delivery but they went ahead anyway.
I heard nothing from them for 14 weeks and the council would not help at all! 

I rent my home and it was only when the landlords insurers came to sign off the installation that the suppliers were contacted

They came and replaced the faulty software and said I would have to get the pipes moved    

This would have involved major works I was told by my landlords meaning the upstairs wet room would be out of action for at least 2 days but I am housebound and my room is next to the wet room which is in constant use. 

I live alone and they wanted cupboards emptied furniture moving and carpets removed with no offer of any help from anyone for this!  On top of that only the cold water pipes would be replaced so no hot water in downstairs bathroom.

I have told them the lift is not fit for purpose and to come and remove it. They are refusing  

I have had further estimates and there is no problem in getting a new replacement made to measure with no need for any other works, however the cost is prohibitive and I have been told I won’t be considered for another grant

my solicitor can do no more without payment and my MP says he has taken up the case but it’s been since before Christmas I have heard nothing. No one is interested. 

tacpot12

Thank you for explaining more about the situation. I can see that you are stuck in a situation that is not your fault. The inadequate site survey seems to be at the root of the problem, and this would be the case whether the council or you took action to recover the cost of the lift and installation from the supplier. 

The supplier could have avoided the problem by asking you (to ask your landlord) to move the pipes first. Your landlord should have considered the cost of this as they are required to do if you ask for an adaption to your home to help you cope with a disabilty. I think that even if they had done the right thing and considered it, they still would have rejected it on the grounds it was unreasonably expensive, and I think they might have won the argument on this.  But then this supplier would not have been contracted to do the work. Some other solution would have been found, possibly from a different supplier. So I don't feel that trying to now force your landlord to move the pipes is a reasonable course of action. I think if your landlord has looked into the cost, they can probably provide you with the estimates they received to move the pipes, and if they can, I think I would get these to show that it would have been an unreasonable request to ask for the pipes to be moved. These estimates form an unimportant part of your case, so don't worry if you can't get hold of them, but I think I would ask for them just in case they turn out to be useful. 


Someone will need to take court action to get them to refund the grant money. Only the person named on the
 contract can take action, so find ing out who this is is step 1. You can ask the supplier to provide a copy of the contract and the order that brought the contract into being. This should clarify who placed the order, and whether you as the grant receipient were a party to the contract.  

Step 2 is for the party that can sue to send a Letter before Action. If you are the party that can sue, you can send the letter before action. There are templates and advice on the internet, but it is of course much easier if you can pay a solicitor to do this, or find a source of free legal services. Your local Citizens Advice should have information about any local sources of such free advice (University Law Departments often provide it as part of educating their students. The students provide the service but this is overseen by their tutors). You should also call charities such as Age UK, and if there is a charity that deals with any specific disability you have, ask them if they can either provide some free legal help OR provide a cash grant so oyu cna pay your solicitor. If you have ever worked, and did so in the armed forces, or a trade or profession, look to see if there is a charity that supports retired or disabled people from that area of work. Again you might be able to either get legal work done for free or a grant to pay for legal work.   

Ask your solicitor what they will charge to send a Letter before Action. You must also ask them what chance they think you have of winning your case. On the face of it, it seems quite strong - you don't have  working stairlift - but there might be legal aspects to the case that we haven't come across yet.

If only the council can take legal action against the supplier, you need to make a complaint, if they won't do so. You can follow this up with a complaint to your councillor, and then to the Local Government Ombudsman. I think your MP will have very little ability to help, but might be able to persuade your councillor that this is a case that they need to get involved with on a deep level.

Do you have any friends or family members that can support you with this problem, as it is going to be a difficult problem to resolve due to the cost to the suppleir to fix it, but the supplier should have done the survey properly, and probably has insurance to cover professional negligence.

If the supplier wants to settle the case before going to court, and suggests that they will pay for the pipes to be moved, I think you should also require that they pay for a firm of removers to come in to clear the access to do the work. I think to protect yourself, it would be better if your landlord paid them (at a peppercorn rate - say £10) to move the pipes. This creates a new contractural arrangement between your landlord and the supplier so that your landlord can sue them if they botch the pipe move (or their contractor does). they will engage a plumber to move the pipes, and the landlord should require that the hot pipe is moved as well as the cold so that the downstairs bathroom continues to have hot water. This way all the relavant laws are complied with - the landlord has made reasonable adaptions to your home.  

You can of course keep coming back to MSE for any further adivce that anyone else might have. 

tacpot12

After commenting above, I moved on to read other posts on the forums and noticed this text as part of someone else's signature and thought that they were especially relevant for you to consider it:  

"From the Forum Rules : "it is up to you to investigate, check and check again before you make any decisions or take any action based on information you glean from our community. Remember, don't rely on what you are reading. Verify it and protect yourself. You are responsible for any action you consequently take."

I am not a lawyer, and i have had no legal training, but feel I have picked up some knowledge of contract law that might be helpful to you in your situation, and I care. But this is no substitute for professional legal advice.

TELLIT01

Have you tried to get your local councillor involved?  I don't understand how the Council can tell the OP which company they have to use and then wash their hands of things when there is a problem.  If that doesn't work get on to local press and/or your MP.  That sometimes shames then into action.

SuzeQStan

Hi OP - sounds like you have been given the right run around - completely disgusted with how they have handled this situation.

have you considered contacting a consumer champion - there’s one I’m aware of in Daily Nail Money section.  You express yourself very well and this sounds like the kind of situation they get their teeth into regularly from the articles I have read. 

There is also the beeb watchdog program who might also be interested in a submission? https://www.bbc.co.uk/send/u23123288?ptrt=https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mg74

Possibly a public letter to your MP in local paper to the editor as well?

time to be the squeaky wheel - it’s a real shame you have to fight for what is right - but by sounds you have plenty fight in you.

don’t give up

macman

The fact that the council financed the install by way of a grant and gave you an approved list of installers doesn't make it a contract between them and the supplier. The paperwork you signed will be the relevant factor here and will probably form the basis of the contract, in the absence of anything else.
I agree that you have been very badly treated, but, subject to sight of the paperwork, your only option is likely to be an LBA and an action against the provider for a claim under CRA2015. The LBA you can do yourself for the cost of a stamp, and the action  can be done through small claims, with the amount (under £10K) dependent on the size of your claim, which you haven't stated. It's really not clear what resolution you are seeking, if you did not have to pay for the failed install?

HillStreetBlues

macman said:

 It's really not clear what resolution you are seeking, if you did not have to pay for the failed install?

To me the OP clearly wants a working stair lift that doesn't need water pipes replacing.

It's the best way to get that is what the OP is enquiring about
(That's my reading of it).

macman

But, due to the botched survey, that appears to not be physically possible. The water pipes will have to be rerouted. 

HillStreetBlues

macman said:

But, due to the botched survey, that appears to not be physically possible. The water pipes will have to be rerouted. 

Only with the current lift.

What should have happened  is the survey was done correctly, so the correct stairlift fitted that didn't need the pipes removed.

So OP want to be in the situation if everything was done correctly,  and it's how to get that is the problem.