Warm home discount scheme payments

[Deleted User]

kaMelo said:

Deleted_User said:

kaMelo said:

The thing is, it's partially because of people who knew nothing about the scheme, so never applied for it, that it was changed this year with those changes leading to hundreds of thousands more people qualifying and receiving the payment automatically.

Even though the roll out has had some problems which is unfortunate, the intent behind the changes are a good thing.

The rule changes caused over 200,000 disabled people receiving warm homes discount to lose eligibility and vast numbers of very poor people with illnesses or disabilities or children living in small homes to lose eligibility. The benefit instead being shifted to large numbers of working families on UC living in larger homes.

The intent was not good, it was political, taking from those less likely to vote Conservative and giving to those more likely to vote Conservative, and ideological taking mostly from those not working and giving mostly to those in low paid employment.

The result will be more winter deaths as the ill and disabled are more vulnerable to the cold and the very poorest households least able to afford heating bills

I hear what you're saying but the statistics would suggest the opposite is true. 
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1065684/Warm_Home_Discount_Better_targeted_support_from_2022_Government_response.pdf

The Government’s objective is to focus the support towards those on the lowest incomes and in or at greatest risk of fuel poverty. To include non-means-tested benefits would mean that higher income households would become eligible for rebates and lower income households would lose out. For instance, including the non-means-tested disability benefits: Disability Living Allowance (DLA), Personal Independence Payments (PIP), and Attendance Allowance (AA), would mean that higher income DLA, PIP, and AA households would displace lower income households, including lower income DLA, PIP, and AA recipients. Based on the Fuel Poverty Statistics 2020 (2018 data), the income threshold for being considered fuel poor was £13,533, while the median income for fuel poor households was £10,184.5 Our calculations using the underlying English Housing Survey (EHS) data show that the median income of those eligible under the Core Group 2 low-income criteria was around £11,510. This compares to a median income for DLA and PIP recipients of around £14,434.

Our analysis using EHS data shows that 62% of DLA and PIP recipients are also in receipt of one of the listed low-income means-tested benefits, and so would be considered low income under the Core Group 2 criteria. The majority of DLA and PIP households who are not in receipt of a means-tested benefit are in higher income deciles and are therefore less at risk of fuel poverty, if at all. The fuel poverty rates for DLA and PIP recipients in receipt of one of the qualifying means-tested benefits is 41%, compared to 14% for DLA and PIP recipients who are not eligible – lower than the fuel poverty rate of 16% for the overall population.

As per the final stage Impact Assessment, our latest modelling estimates that there will be a reduction in the number of rebate recipients who receive DLA or PIP by 290,000 or 35%. However, looking wider than the receipt of specific disability benefits, more people with disabilities and health conditions, not fewer, will receive a rebate; our analysis models an increase in the number of recipients who declare they have a long-term illness or disability by 160,000, an increase of 12% compared to the current scheme. Furthermore, the proportion of rebates received by households with a disability or long-term illness will still be higher than the proportion of the fuel poor population or overall population with a disability.

Although what the statistics say doesn't really matter if the system doesn't run smoothly which it clearly hasn't done so far.

Someone so ill or disabled they have personal care or mobility needs or is incapable of paid employment or work related activities, meets the narrow definition of disability benefits eligibility.

Anyone who has any health condion or disability meets the wider definition. No matter how minor.

It is blatantly obvious who is most in need of support. 
It is the person whose health conditions may put them at risk from the cold, whose health conditions may cause them to have higher energy bills, whose health conditions may result in them being at home all day. Not anyone with any health condition or disability no matter how minor. 

The old system used illness, disability, children as indicative of need. So someone so ill or disabled they are eligible for DLA or  PIP,  those ill or disabled enough to be on ESA or UC on grounds of health, or on JSA or UC and having a NHS medical exemption certificate or children. 

The new system uses home type, size, age as indicative of need. So those on UC or any means tested benefit living in detached homes, large homes, old homes. 

The effect being removing eligibility from vast numbers of the most ill and disabled and the most poor households with illness or disability or children. And instead giving eligibility to vast numbers of working households on UC living in larger homes. 

slmcj9

I received a letter in November from DWP saying i may be eligible for the £150 warm home discount, so i rang the number and they confirmed after giving them a few details that i  would be receiving the £150…I still havent received this so i rang Scottish Power who advised me they havent had this payment from DWP and to ring the helpline… The number given is now not working🤷🏻‍♂️

Not sure what to do now as somewhere along the line there is a problem and my £150 is lying in the governments pot…when i really could do with it to pay for my energy used… shambles

HillStreetBlues

KxMx said:

I live in a one bed flat (which has proved to need a surprising amount of heating compared to the 3 bed semi I left), I get ESA and UC, single person household with an income that puts me £2.5k below the threshold where I am considered to be in fuel poverty (using the figures above).

In 21/22 I would have received the WHD, now I cannot under the new eligibility.

I am exactly the type of household that charities and organisations warned would be at a disadvantage when the new scheme was at the consultation stage. 

Fortunately the Cost of Living payments mean for last winter and next winter I will not be worrying over keeping myself warm, but CoL are temporary and if the scheme carries on as is, I will be worried about keeping myself warm winter of 24/25. 

The trouble is it doesn't include any upgrades to insulation.
So as house built in the 60's might have walls filled double or triple glazing etc but will still qualify
Yet a flat that rarely has walls filled or much done to it won't.

Also with the LHA being so low, it's normally the poorest people in the properties  that are least maintained and upgraded.
Some still have little insulation and single glazed windows, but most of these people won't get the WHD.

Muttleythefrog

kaMelo said:

Deleted_User said:

kaMelo said:

The thing is, it's partially because of people who knew nothing about the scheme, so never applied for it, that it was changed this year with those changes leading to hundreds of thousands more people qualifying and receiving the payment automatically.

Even though the roll out has had some problems which is unfortunate, the intent behind the changes are a good thing.

The rule changes caused over 200,000 disabled people receiving warm homes discount to lose eligibility and vast numbers of very poor people with illnesses or disabilities or children living in small homes to lose eligibility. The benefit instead being shifted to large numbers of working families on UC living in larger homes.

The intent was not good, it was political, taking from those less likely to vote Conservative and giving to those more likely to vote Conservative, and ideological taking mostly from those not working and giving mostly to those in low paid employment.

The result will be more winter deaths as the ill and disabled are more vulnerable to the cold and the very poorest households least able to afford heating bills

I hear what you're saying but the statistics would suggest the opposite is true. 
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1065684/Warm_Home_Discount_Better_targeted_support_from_2022_Government_response.pdf

The Government’s objective is to focus the support towards those on the lowest incomes and in or at greatest risk of fuel poverty. To include non-means-tested benefits would mean that higher income households would become eligible for rebates and lower income households would lose out. For instance, including the non-means-tested disability benefits: Disability Living Allowance (DLA), Personal Independence Payments (PIP), and Attendance Allowance (AA), would mean that higher income DLA, PIP, and AA households would displace lower income households, including lower income DLA, PIP, and AA recipients. Based on the Fuel Poverty Statistics 2020 (2018 data), the income threshold for being considered fuel poor was £13,533, while the median income for fuel poor households was £10,184.5 Our calculations using the underlying English Housing Survey (EHS) data show that the median income of those eligible under the Core Group 2 low-income criteria was around £11,510. This compares to a median income for DLA and PIP recipients of around £14,434.

Our analysis using EHS data shows that 62% of DLA and PIP recipients are also in receipt of one of the listed low-income means-tested benefits, and so would be considered low income under the Core Group 2 criteria. The majority of DLA and PIP households who are not in receipt of a means-tested benefit are in higher income deciles and are therefore less at risk of fuel poverty, if at all. The fuel poverty rates for DLA and PIP recipients in receipt of one of the qualifying means-tested benefits is 41%, compared to 14% for DLA and PIP recipients who are not eligible – lower than the fuel poverty rate of 16% for the overall population.

As per the final stage Impact Assessment, our latest modelling estimates that there will be a reduction in the number of rebate recipients who receive DLA or PIP by 290,000 or 35%. However, looking wider than the receipt of specific disability benefits, more people with disabilities and health conditions, not fewer, will receive a rebate; our analysis models an increase in the number of recipients who declare they have a long-term illness or disability by 160,000, an increase of 12% compared to the current scheme. Furthermore, the proportion of rebates received by households with a disability or long-term illness will still be higher than the proportion of the fuel poor population or overall population with a disability.

Although what the statistics say doesn't really matter if the system doesn't run smoothly which it clearly hasn't done so far.

Have to query if the statistics suggest the opposite to what the poster claimed. I tend to agree with them.. it looks very similar to that of the temporary U/C uplift - an attempt to support more likely voters of their persuasion who are facing tough times. As the other poster points out disabled people could well have higher cost needs... indeed that's what PIP reflects.. plus I imagine they are more likely at home longer periods requiring heating etc but also of course many will have illness or disability that requires extra heating or particular conditions to prevent health problems or reduce symptoms. Putting that aside there doesn't seem particularly much analysis on who lives where - and it strikes me that it is the qualifying household criteria which will seriously distort support away from the most needy and towards those of temporary difficulties and inherently more resource. I would take that punt based on the idea poorer people are more likely to live in smaller properties of less favourable feature like being terraced - on one hand I suppose it could be argued these will be cheaper to run but one questions why someone living in a stately home or large detached property should be assisted to pay their bills.

That said as you point to the system doesn't seem to run smoothly anyway... we have seen cases where people have not even been on the bill such as those living with family and somehow they've gotten payment in a nice big old family house where they may not even pay towards the bills. Clearly a lot of disabled people will miss out and I'm one.. but my view is this is just the games of a dying government and £150 frankly in the scheme of things is not much especially when you look at the huge rises in basic costs people have faced and arguably also other help being provided (7 times as much for a disabled person on income related benefits this year if my quick maths is right). Indeed I wonder if the WHD has any purpose given its relative size and complexity to administer - there are probably better existing methods to channel support of this nature.

Loopsnhoops

If you contact SSE or OVO about the warm home discount, they seem to confuse the WHD with the EBSS (that £400 help everyone got).

I have tried to contact Ofgem about this but they do not respond. SSE and OVO send you around in circles. So I guess writing to the MP is the only option.

It isn't just SSE/OVO though..  a quick internet search reveals noise is brewing from people who haven't recieved the WHD who are with other energy providers.

Spoonie_Turtle

[Deleted User] said:

HillStreetBlues said:

KxMx said:

I live in a one bed flat (which has proved to need a surprising amount of heating compared to the 3 bed semi I left), I get ESA and UC, single person household with an income that puts me £2.5k below the threshold where I am considered to be in fuel poverty (using the figures above).

In 21/22 I would have received the WHD, now I cannot under the new eligibility.

I am exactly the type of household that charities and organisations warned would be at a disadvantage when the new scheme was at the consultation stage. 

Fortunately the Cost of Living payments mean for last winter and next winter I will not be worrying over keeping myself warm, but CoL are temporary and if the scheme carries on as is, I will be worried about keeping myself warm winter of 24/25. 

The trouble is it doesn't include any upgrades to insulation.
So as house built in the 60's might have walls filled double or triple glazing etc but will still qualify
Yet a flat that rarely has walls filled or much done to it won't.

Also with the LHA being so low, it's normally the poorest people in the properties  that are least maintained and upgraded.
Some still have little insulation and single glazed windows, but most of these people won't get the WHD.

I may be wrong but I think its based on the energy certificate for the home, not the age or style of property. Mine is E rated and very cold without heating. 

You are wrong - it is based on the age, type, and size.  The only reason the EPC was ever mentioned is the EPC is a source of those pieces of information, and if people didn't automatically qualify through the government property calculation, the EPC is the only source they accept for age and size of a property.  (They would accept Land Registry data as a source for type of property, e.g. detached, semi-detached, etc.)

So if a person's property was missing a characteristic or two in the government's database and the property didn't have an EPC, that person is stuffed … of course, the people most likely for that to happen are those living in the worst properties and those least likely to be able to afford to shell out for an EPC.

---

As for the point about the WHD supporting people in large stately homes(!) that is one thing I don't think we needed to worry about - don't forget people have to be claiming a low income benefit (and Tax Credits have a caveat of a threshold proportional to the makeup of the family), and I hardly think anyone claiming such benefits could afford to be living in extravagantly large homes!  The only possible exception being those who've inherited, but if that's the case then the £150 will hardly touch the sides, they certainly won't be rolling in cash because of it!
(Yes I know that's veering towards discussing policy.  But it's a point loads of people seemed to forget on the energy board as well.)

[Deleted User]

Spoonie_Turtle said:

[Deleted User] said:

HillStreetBlues said:

KxMx said:

I live in a one bed flat (which has proved to need a surprising amount of heating compared to the 3 bed semi I left), I get ESA and UC, single person household with an income that puts me £2.5k below the threshold where I am considered to be in fuel poverty (using the figures above).

In 21/22 I would have received the WHD, now I cannot under the new eligibility.

I am exactly the type of household that charities and organisations warned would be at a disadvantage when the new scheme was at the consultation stage. 

Fortunately the Cost of Living payments mean for last winter and next winter I will not be worrying over keeping myself warm, but CoL are temporary and if the scheme carries on as is, I will be worried about keeping myself warm winter of 24/25. 

The trouble is it doesn't include any upgrades to insulation.
So as house built in the 60's might have walls filled double or triple glazing etc but will still qualify
Yet a flat that rarely has walls filled or much done to it won't.

Also with the LHA being so low, it's normally the poorest people in the properties  that are least maintained and upgraded.
Some still have little insulation and single glazed windows, but most of these people won't get the WHD.

I may be wrong but I think its based on the energy certificate for the home, not the age or style of property. Mine is E rated and very cold without heating. 

You are wrong - it is based on the age, type, and size.  The only reason the EPC was ever mentioned is the EPC is a source of those pieces of information, and if people didn't automatically qualify through the government property calculation, the EPC is the only source they accept for age and size of a property.  (They would accept Land Registry data as a source for type of property, e.g. detached, semi-detached, etc.)

So if a person's property was missing a characteristic or two in the government's database and the property didn't have an EPC, that person is stuffed … of course, the people most likely for that to happen are those living in the worst properties and those least likely to be able to afford to shell out for an EPC.

---

As for the point about the WHD supporting people in large stately homes(!) that is one thing I don't think we needed to worry about - don't forget people have to be claiming a low income benefit (and Tax Credits have a caveat of a threshold proportional to the makeup of the family), and I hardly think anyone claiming such benefits could afford to be living in extravagantly large homes!  The only possible exception being those who've inherited, but if that's the case then the £150 will hardly touch the sides, they certainly won't be rolling in cash because of it!
(Yes I know that's veering towards discussing policy.  But it's a point loads of people seemed to forget on the energy board as well.)

Yes, I did already say "I may be wrong". All I know is they used my home EPC to determine that I am eligible, but yet regardless I haven't received it. So it's kind of irrelevant to most situations how they work out eligibility or not because even after determining you are eligible, they haven't given to many. 

I have no idea what the stately homes part was about as that wasn't something I'd mentioned. Kind of lost me a bit I'm afraid. 

friends_together

The bottom line is that people have been told that they are eligible by DWP and yet still have not had the payment via their energy companies. Where has this money gone ????? That is the big question.

Spoonie_Turtle

[Deleted User] said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

[Deleted User] said:

HillStreetBlues said:

KxMx said:

I live in a one bed flat (which has proved to need a surprising amount of heating compared to the 3 bed semi I left), I get ESA and UC, single person household with an income that puts me £2.5k below the threshold where I am considered to be in fuel poverty (using the figures above).

In 21/22 I would have received the WHD, now I cannot under the new eligibility.

I am exactly the type of household that charities and organisations warned would be at a disadvantage when the new scheme was at the consultation stage. 

Fortunately the Cost of Living payments mean for last winter and next winter I will not be worrying over keeping myself warm, but CoL are temporary and if the scheme carries on as is, I will be worried about keeping myself warm winter of 24/25. 

The trouble is it doesn't include any upgrades to insulation.
So as house built in the 60's might have walls filled double or triple glazing etc but will still qualify
Yet a flat that rarely has walls filled or much done to it won't.

Also with the LHA being so low, it's normally the poorest people in the properties  that are least maintained and upgraded.
Some still have little insulation and single glazed windows, but most of these people won't get the WHD.

I may be wrong but I think its based on the energy certificate for the home, not the age or style of property. Mine is E rated and very cold without heating. 

You are wrong - it is based on the age, type, and size.  The only reason the EPC was ever mentioned is the EPC is a source of those pieces of information, and if people didn't automatically qualify through the government property calculation, the EPC is the only source they accept for age and size of a property.  (They would accept Land Registry data as a source for type of property, e.g. detached, semi-detached, etc.)

So if a person's property was missing a characteristic or two in the government's database and the property didn't have an EPC, that person is stuffed … of course, the people most likely for that to happen are those living in the worst properties and those least likely to be able to afford to shell out for an EPC.

---

As for the point about the WHD supporting people in large stately homes(!) that is one thing I don't think we needed to worry about - don't forget people have to be claiming a low income benefit (and Tax Credits have a caveat of a threshold proportional to the makeup of the family), and I hardly think anyone claiming such benefits could afford to be living in extravagantly large homes!  The only possible exception being those who've inherited, but if that's the case then the £150 will hardly touch the sides, they certainly won't be rolling in cash because of it!
(Yes I know that's veering towards discussing policy.  But it's a point loads of people seemed to forget on the energy board as well.)

Yes, I did already say "I may be wrong". All I know is they used my home EPC to determine that I am eligible, but yet regardless I haven't received it. So it's kind of irrelevant to most situations how they work out eligibility or not because even after determining you are eligible, they haven't given to many. 

I have no idea what the stately homes part was about as that wasn't something I'd mentioned. Kind of lost me a bit I'm afraid. 

Sorry, I didn't mean the 'you are wrong' to be accusatory or otherwise negative, it was supposed to be gently agreeing with your 'I may be wrong'   (I sometimes forget how difficult tone can be on the internet!)

The stately homes part was in response to a few other comments that had mentioned large homes (one did actually say 'stately homes') but I couldn't quote them because they were on the previous page, that's why I tried to separate it from the first part of my comment that was responding directly to you.

Spoonie_Turtle

friends_together said:

The bottom line is that people have been told that they are eligible by DWP and yet still have not had the payment via their energy companies. Where has this money gone ????? That is the big question.

All suppliers have to reconcile their payments by a particular date in the summer (I forget when exactly, but 31st July comes to mind).  Any money that hasn't been able to be paid by the relevant date goes back to the government - but if the government hasn't told the supplier to pay certain people, chances are they didn't give the supplier money to pay those people in the first place.