ISA transfer from Virgin Money to Barclays declined (cannot locate account) - how to proceed?

TheBanker

It seems pretty poor that if Virgin receive a request and cannot find the account, they don't check their other entities/systems, given it seems to be quite common that transfer instructions end up with the 'wrong' Virgin entity. 

[Deleted User] said:

boingy said:

I have to say that I switched a cash ISA out of Virgin last year and it was trouble-free. All the account details I needed were displayed in the Virgin App. The transfer wasn't exactly speedy but it went through just fine.

I saw several scenarios of transfers out from Virgin Money on this forum.
You might be lucky but generally it depends on which bank had your Cash ISA as apparently there are at least 3 different entities working under the "Virgin Money" umbrella.
In my case sort code 82 implies it's Clydesdale Bank but in the Virgin Media app there is no word about Clydesdale Bank, just sort code and account number. Over the phone/chat they literally say "all the information you need to give to your new ISA manager is your full name, sort code, account number and amount to transfer". And considering these 3 different entities and all my correspondence being from Virgin Media, there is only ~30% chance for my transfer to go through as Virgin Media responds "cannot locate account" when supplied with correct sort code/account number but different ISA manager name.
It looks like Virgin's fault that cost a lot of time and money to their unlucky customers.

If you are sending your ISA transfer requests to Virgin Media, it's no surprise that they're coming back as "cannot locate account"!

masonic

35har1old said:

masonic said:

Deleted_User said:

masonic said:

Deleted_User said:
Could you please tell me how to do it properly as I have never done it before and would be grateful for any advice.

The process is very simple, you can start it here: https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/make-complaint

You would need to make a complaint that is specific to the organisation you are complaining about, i.e. what you think they did wrong, and how that impacted you in terms of inconvenience and any losses suffered.

The Financial Ombudsman Service will be able to get hold of all of the transfer-related information and make a judgement on why the transfer wasn't successfully actioned. They don't need you to do any detective work yourself, so you can restrict each complaint to the relevant facts around the non-transfer of your ISA and what you were told about each bank by the other.

Sorry, my question was regarding requesting data from banks, i.e SAR.
Or you think it's not required here and I just need to stick to the facts that I have?

Waiting for a SAR would just slow the complaints process down, and the Financial Ombudsman Service will need to request the same information from the banks whether or not you supply it to them, and I dare say the banks will act more quickly when responding to them vs you.

The nub of the issue is Virgin not registering themselves as a cash ISA manager, and apparently not updating the HMRC and TISA databases with their new trading name and contact details as they continue to operate cash ISAs under Clydesdale Bank's licence. That key information won't be found in a response to a SAR. Barclays would be found at fault if the contact information in these databases differed to that used to send the transfer correspondence, while Virgin would be found at fault if the correspondence was received in accordance with those databases, but incorrectly processed. A third option is that incorrect information was supplied on the transfer form, which might be Virgin's fault if the information they provided related to transfers out was unclear.

So, as I see it, you have two complaints:

one against Barclays alleging they didn't use the correct correspondence information when processing the transfer request, causing it to be received by the wrong group company and rejected

one against Virgin alleging they wrongly stated to Barclays that your account couldn't be located, and to you that they never received any correspondence from Barclays.

Virgin are registered  as a ISA manager as you can apply for several ISAs and one could be on what I would consider to be the Clydesdale Web page 10 digit numerical customer  number and the other would be on the Virgin Web page 7digit alphabetical  login

No, Virgin Money is not a registered cash ISA manager. The official list from HMRC is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/list-of-individual-savings-account-isa-managers-approved-by-hmrc/registered-individual-savings-account-isa-managers#registered-names-v

The nearest firm on the list is Virgin Money Unit Trust Managers Limited, who only offer S&S ISAs. Virgin Money plc, now known as Virgin Money Limited, is no longer FCA authorised and is a non-trading company.

Clydesdale Bank plc is on the list, and owns the registered trading name "Virgin Money" (and "Yorkshire Bank"), but it was Clydesdale that told Barclays they couldn't find an ISA matching the details provided.

In other words, "Virgin Money" is today just a brand, and the problems are the result of the brand owner, Clydesdale Bank, stuffing all of its products into that brand identity while keeping their operation separated into siloed customer service centres (who apparently operate as if they don't know about one another), leaving customers and other ISA managers to play guessing games about how and where to address correspondence.

[Deleted User]

35har1old said:

masonic said:

Deleted_User said:

masonic said:

Deleted_User said:
Could you please tell me how to do it properly as I have never done it before and would be grateful for any advice.

The process is very simple, you can start it here: https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/make-complaint

You would need to make a complaint that is specific to the organisation you are complaining about, i.e. what you think they did wrong, and how that impacted you in terms of inconvenience and any losses suffered.

The Financial Ombudsman Service will be able to get hold of all of the transfer-related information and make a judgement on why the transfer wasn't successfully actioned. They don't need you to do any detective work yourself, so you can restrict each complaint to the relevant facts around the non-transfer of your ISA and what you were told about each bank by the other.

Sorry, my question was regarding requesting data from banks, i.e SAR.
Or you think it's not required here and I just need to stick to the facts that I have?

Waiting for a SAR would just slow the complaints process down, and the Financial Ombudsman Service will need to request the same information from the banks whether or not you supply it to them, and I dare say the banks will act more quickly when responding to them vs you.

The nub of the issue is Virgin not registering themselves as a cash ISA manager, and apparently not updating the HMRC and TISA databases with their new trading name and contact details as they continue to operate cash ISAs under Clydesdale Bank's licence. That key information won't be found in a response to a SAR. Barclays would be found at fault if the contact information in these databases differed to that used to send the transfer correspondence, while Virgin would be found at fault if the correspondence was received in accordance with those databases, but incorrectly processed. A third option is that incorrect information was supplied on the transfer form, which might be Virgin's fault if the information they provided related to transfers out was unclear.

So, as I see it, you have two complaints:

one against Barclays alleging they didn't use the correct correspondence information when processing the transfer request, causing it to be received by the wrong group company and rejected

one against Virgin alleging they wrongly stated to Barclays that your account couldn't be located, and to you that they never received any correspondence from Barclays.

Virgin are registered  as a ISA manager as you can apply for several ISAs and one could be on what I would consider to be the Clydesdale Web page 10 digit numerical customer  number and the other would be on the Virgin Web page 7digit alphabetical  login

Sorry, I don't quite get how it is related to my question regarding the complaints, could you elaborate?

[Deleted User]

masonic said:

35har1old said:

masonic said:

Deleted_User said:

masonic said:

Deleted_User said:
Could you please tell me how to do it properly as I have never done it before and would be grateful for any advice.

The process is very simple, you can start it here: https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/make-complaint

You would need to make a complaint that is specific to the organisation you are complaining about, i.e. what you think they did wrong, and how that impacted you in terms of inconvenience and any losses suffered.

The Financial Ombudsman Service will be able to get hold of all of the transfer-related information and make a judgement on why the transfer wasn't successfully actioned. They don't need you to do any detective work yourself, so you can restrict each complaint to the relevant facts around the non-transfer of your ISA and what you were told about each bank by the other.

Sorry, my question was regarding requesting data from banks, i.e SAR.
Or you think it's not required here and I just need to stick to the facts that I have?

Waiting for a SAR would just slow the complaints process down, and the Financial Ombudsman Service will need to request the same information from the banks whether or not you supply it to them, and I dare say the banks will act more quickly when responding to them vs you.

The nub of the issue is Virgin not registering themselves as a cash ISA manager, and apparently not updating the HMRC and TISA databases with their new trading name and contact details as they continue to operate cash ISAs under Clydesdale Bank's licence. That key information won't be found in a response to a SAR. Barclays would be found at fault if the contact information in these databases differed to that used to send the transfer correspondence, while Virgin would be found at fault if the correspondence was received in accordance with those databases, but incorrectly processed. A third option is that incorrect information was supplied on the transfer form, which might be Virgin's fault if the information they provided related to transfers out was unclear.

So, as I see it, you have two complaints:

one against Barclays alleging they didn't use the correct correspondence information when processing the transfer request, causing it to be received by the wrong group company and rejected

one against Virgin alleging they wrongly stated to Barclays that your account couldn't be located, and to you that they never received any correspondence from Barclays.

Virgin are registered  as a ISA manager as you can apply for several ISAs and one could be on what I would consider to be the Clydesdale Web page 10 digit numerical customer  number and the other would be on the Virgin Web page 7digit alphabetical  login

No, Virgin Money is not a registered cash ISA manager. The official list from HMRC is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/list-of-individual-savings-account-isa-managers-approved-by-hmrc/registered-individual-savings-account-isa-managers#registered-names-v

The nearest firm on the list is Virgin Money Unit Trust Managers Limited, who only offer S&S ISAs. Virgin Money plc, now known as Virgin Money Limited, is no longer FCA authorised and is a non-trading company.

Clydesdale Bank plc is on the list, and owns the registered trading name "Virgin Money" (and "Yorkshire Bank"), but it was Clydesdale that told Barclays they couldn't find an ISA matching the details provided.

In other words, "Virgin Money" is today just a brand, and the problems are the result of the brand owner, Clydesdale Bank, stuffing all of its products into that brand identity while keeping their operation separated into siloed customer service centres (who apparently operate as if they don't know about one another), leaving customers and other ISA managers to play guessing games about how and where to address correspondence.

Well, the funny thing is that I asked Barclays 2 times to send the same transfer request and on the first occasion they received a response from Clydesdale bank but on the second one it was from Virgin Money.
And in Virgin's response to my complaint it reads "Barclays has not updated their own systems to reflect Clydesdale bank is now Virgin Money with sort code starting 82".
Don't know what happened under the hood but according to the letters BOTH entities were unable to locate my account, which cannot be true.
And subsequently the third (initiated by Barclays) transfer request resulted in a "account closed" response from Clydesdale bank, the same entity that earlier responded "unable to locate".
A whole lot of mess if you ask me..

TheBanker

If you want to pursue this, you need to work out what it is you're looking for, and think about how much time you're prepared to invest in making complaints.

You said Virgin have already offered £35 to compensate for additional phone calls. In my view that is not dissimilar to the amount FOS would award for the inconvenience of having to make extra phone calls.

You also mentioned a loss of interest. The ISA Transfer Rules (https://www.gov.uk/individual-savings-accounts/transferring-your-isa) say that transfers between cash ISAs should be completed within 15 working days (assuming your original request was correct). So any lost interest would be based on the period between 15 working days after you submitted the request, and the date your funds started to earn interest in the new account. Note that some providers automatically backdate interest under certain circumstances, so you need to check if this has happened with your transfer.

The detailed industry guidelines are here: https://www.tisa.uk.com/publications/762_BBA01-470823-v1-Revised_Cash_ISA_Transfers_Industry_Guidelines_-_1_Janu....pdf

You can work out the differential (i.e. what the new account would have paid minus what the old account paid during the period between day 16 and completion). Having done this, you'd need to decide whether it's worth pursuing.

Personally I would ask Barclays, as the new ISA provider, to make good any lost interest. The industry guidelines seem to support this (although they are not regulations or laws). But if Virgin have offered £35 for phone calls, then they seem to have accepted at least partial responsibility for the delays. 

[Deleted User]

TheBanker said:

Personally I would ask Barclays, as the new ISA provider, to make good any lost interest. The industry guidelines seem to support this (although they are not regulations or laws). But if Virgin have offered £35 for phone calls, then they seem to have accepted at least partial responsibility for the delays. 

Thanks for the ideas.
Barclays eventually responded to my complain submitted in Fabruary (after me contacting their CEO) and guess what?
They didn't offer any compensation despite me showing them being dead slow in communicating outcomes to me (they got transfer rejection on 23 Jan but wrote me a letter on 11 Feb despite having my email/mobile on file), wrong contact numbers on their letters and amount of time spent on the phone. They also said the transfer failed because of "when Virgin Money acquired Clydesdale Bank, there is a known issue whereby some customer details hadn't been transferred over properly" so "the rejection of the transfer was initiated by Virgin Money" and they are "unable to find a bank error with the transfer not going through".
After all that would rate them lower than Virgin Money, a disgusting bank. Will close all my accounts with them soon.

sparkyspark

Sent two Full Closure ISA transfers from Shawbrook to transfer and fully close the two Virgin ISA's (05 Yorkshire Bank sort code) for myself and my wife only two weeks ago, Virgin did both transfers but on both they emptied the accounts to a zero balance and did not close the accounts fully down as requested by Shawbrook, this resulted in £900.00 pounds of interest on both the Virgin ISA's being stuck.

When doing another request by Shawbrook to again fully close the accounts and transfer the interest, they responded saying they couldn't find the accounts, so refunded the Virgin ISA's to give the accounts a credible balance for £100 into each of the  accounts through two cash ISA transfer from Coventry BS, Virgin transferred my Wife's £100 correctly, but astonishingly they transferred the whole balance of my Coventry ISA and fully closed the account.

Currently got two complaints lodged with Virgin as they have acknowledged that on both the original closures they've cocked and the second complaint by fully closing my Coventry Account when only a partial transfer was requested, once again they have acknowledged they've cocked up again.

I also have details of the Transfers from both Shawbrook which shows they asked for full closure and Coventry BS which shows a part transfer request from Coventry to Virgin. Utter shambles of a company since the takeover.

xylophone

Utter shambles of a company since the takeover.

Sometimes it works...

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6448269/isa-transfer-in-record-time

sparkyspark

xylophone said:

Utter shambles of a company since the takeover.

Sometimes it works...

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6448269/isa-transfer-in-record-time

Alas not in my case, but your mainly correct.
I've  got multiple ISA's open with various institutions, and have never had a scenario like mine or any type of problem happen with any transfers before.
Just unlucky I suppose 😕 

sparkyspark

Virgin rang today and offered £200 compensation to finalise my complaints, which I've accepted.