ISA transfer from Virgin Money to Barclays declined (cannot locate account) - how to proceed?

35har1old

masonic said:

35har1old said:

masonic said:

35har1old said:

masonic said:

35har1old said:

Ulrich said:

35har1old said:

The new provider is at fault due to them not quoting the correct code on the transfer request to Virgin
All providers have excess to a list detailing what code to use when requesting a transfer. Virgin have several codes i know from personal experience because  i have transferred from Virgin to a new provider and this problem occurred it took from 17-11-22 to 16-01-23 to complete some of the time was due to postal strikes. I only found out after making a complaint to Virgin that if they receive a request with incorrect code the response is account not found and they do not keep a record of the request being made. I was given the correct code by Virgin and passed it on to the new provider and transfer then completed

I'm confused. I provided a sort code starting with 82 and an account number when requested a transfer.
Don't remember if I had to choose the existing provider's name.
Barclays received the response from Clydesdale Bank and it's in line what @fabsaver referred to.
So why do Clydesdale Bank replied they can't locate it?

When you applied you likely would   not have a choice of Clydesdale or Yorkshire as these are under the Virgin header. The problem is down to Barclays not applying the right code to the request. This code is not a sort code but is from a list that all banks have to consult before making the transfer request if they do not make the correct choice the transfer fails.The list is for bank use only.   ISA that you are transferring is named as a Virgin ISA

As addressed above by Frogletina, I don't think this is correct, even if it is what you were told. It is a Virgin-specific issue and the code being referred to is the sort code of the account. Other providers do not require transfer forms to be sent to a different location depending on the sort code of the account, nor do they require a particular mystery code to be added to the transfer form.

It's not a mystery code its a list that all bank use I have personal experience of this once I pushed to get the right code from Virgin i passed this to the new provider the transfer completed shortly there after
 For example do you no the merchant codes that Visa use.

I'm sorry, but you've been spun a yarn. HMRC has detailed information about transfers and what information needs to be provided here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/transfer-an-isa-if-youre-an-isa-manager
I'm confident that you'll find zero mention of a special code without which a transfer cannot be executed. The model cash ISA transfer form can also be found here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/693198/Appendices.pdf

That form includes all of the required information to enact a transfer. Most provider forms ask for additional information, which is optional. No form I've ever seen asks for a code that is not the sort code of the ISA account (most transfer forms do include sort code and account number).

Either this is something Virgin has invented, or it is completely spurious. I suppose the other alternative is that this 'code' is just the entry number or Service User Number in the database of ISA managers, and the code in question refers to either Yorkshire BS, or Clydesdale Bank. In that case Barclays would still need to be told by the customer which of the two possible options they should use, and it would be far easier just to tell them it's YBS or Clydesdale.

That said, it is possible to transfer an ISA from a provider completely unknown to the new provider. I have had to do this on a couple of occasions by providing full contact details (these were very new providers of Innovative Finance ISAs).

New provider agreed that there is a list of codes and once ir was applied the transfer completed        

Then that would suggest the code was an entry number or SUN in the database of ISA managers and told them whether it was YBS or Clydesdale they needed to communicate with. Most other people would find it a lot easier to name the correct provider on the transfer form using the sort code of their account, as advised in the help page quoted above. Once again, there is no actual need for any code to be provided if the correct ISA manager is specified on the form. This is all confusion of VM's making, and Barclays couldn't be expected to play guessing games about the actual ISA manager they needed to contact. It certainly wasn't your fault you were unaware of VM's advice not to choose themselves as the ISA manager.

Get ready for a life more Virgin

Virgin Money teamed up with Yorkshire Bank back in October 2018. Since then, we’ve been working hard behind the scenes to bring the two banks together.

From February 2022, our Savings range will be available under the Virgin Money brand, the perfect combination of expertise and Virgin innovation.

Not to be confused with YBS     Yorkshire Building Society

35har1old

masonic said:

35har1old said:

masonic said:

35har1old said:

Ulrich said:

35har1old said:

The new provider is at fault due to them not quoting the correct code on the transfer request to Virgin
All providers have excess to a list detailing what code to use when requesting a transfer. Virgin have several codes i know from personal experience because  i have transferred from Virgin to a new provider and this problem occurred it took from 17-11-22 to 16-01-23 to complete some of the time was due to postal strikes. I only found out after making a complaint to Virgin that if they receive a request with incorrect code the response is account not found and they do not keep a record of the request being made. I was given the correct code by Virgin and passed it on to the new provider and transfer then completed

I'm confused. I provided a sort code starting with 82 and an account number when requested a transfer.
Don't remember if I had to choose the existing provider's name.
Barclays received the response from Clydesdale Bank and it's in line what @fabsaver referred to.
So why do Clydesdale Bank replied they can't locate it?

When you applied you likely would   not have a choice of Clydesdale or Yorkshire as these are under the Virgin header. The problem is down to Barclays not applying the right code to the request. This code is not a sort code but is from a list that all banks have to consult before making the transfer request if they do not make the correct choice the transfer fails.The list is for bank use only.   ISA that you are transferring is named as a Virgin ISA

As addressed above by Frogletina, I don't think this is correct, even if it is what you were told. It is a Virgin-specific issue and the code being referred to is the sort code of the account. Other providers do not require transfer forms to be sent to a different location depending on the sort code of the account, nor do they require a particular mystery code to be added to the transfer form.

It's not a mystery code its a list that all bank use I have personal experience of this once I pushed to get the right code from Virgin i passed this to the new provider the transfer completed shortly there after
 For example do you no the merchant codes that Visa use.

I'm sorry, but you've been spun a yarn. HMRC has detailed information about transfers and what information needs to be provided here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/transfer-an-isa-if-youre-an-isa-manager
I'm confident that you'll find zero mention of a special code without which a transfer cannot be executed. The model cash ISA transfer form can also be found here: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/693198/Appendices.pdf

That form includes all of the required information to enact a transfer. Most provider forms ask for additional information, which is optional. No form I've ever seen asks for a code that is not the sort code of the ISA account (most transfer forms do include sort code and account number). What are needed are the correct details of the ISA manager that currently holds the ISA in question.

Either this is something Virgin has invented, or it is completely spurious. I suppose the other alternative is that this 'code' is just the entry number or Service User Number in the database of ISA managers, and the code in question refers to either Yorkshire BS, or Clydesdale Bank. In that case Barclays would still need to be told by the customer which of the two possible options they should use, and it would be far easier just to tell them it's YBS or Clydesdale.

That said, it is possible to transfer an ISA from a provider completely unknown to the new provider. I have had to do this on a couple of occasions by providing full contact details (these were very new providers of Innovative Finance ISAs).

 Its not up to the client to provide the code 

Also these ISA are Named Virgin not Clydesdale or Yorkshire Bank even if you enter them into a bank sort code site they all come back Virgin Money and in brackets. For example Virgin Money (09 Clydesdale Bank) There is three sort codes involved two with addresses in Glasgow  ant the other has a Newcastle address

Telling them YBS or Clydesdale  differently would cause some confusion if you chose YBS = Yorkshire Building Society
 
 Followed you link

TISA maintains two secure databases containing the contact details of ISA providers as well as the Service User Number (SUN) details for electronic messaging. These databases are for access only by other ISA providers, for the purpose of resolving and escalating protracted transfer issues. All ISA providers should keep their contact details up to date at all times on both databases to support the correct direction of transfers and other communications between providers. Contact details should include telephone, email and address and office working hours, for telephone contact in particular. The TISA databases should also be populated with contact details of where to refer Transfer Out / Transfer In correspondence – as this can distinguish between where ISA providers want the initial request correspondence to be directed (e.g. central address or

masonic

Your several posts above just highlight what a complete mess Virgin has made of all of this. I agree that clients should not have to provide a code to their new ISA manager to have their transfer processed. A code is clearly not required as transfers not involving Virgin work just fine using just the name of the ISA manager.

The branding of the ISA is not relevant, so despite the fact they are called "Virgin Money" ISAs, the actual ISA manager cannot be either Virgin Money Limited or Virgin Money PLC because neither of those companies is authorised by HMRC to offer cash ISAs. If either were offering cash ISAs directly, then these would not be valid tax free accounts according to HMRC rules and clients would be at risk of being landed with a tax bill when this emerged. However, there is little risk of this as nothing you posted suggests Virgin PLC is the underlying ISA manager for these accounts, in fact, the text you quoted shows it is just the brand name (my emphasis):

35har1old said:

From February 2022, our Savings range will be available under the Virgin Money brand, the perfect combination of expertise and Virgin innovation.

This is equivalent to Halifax Sharedealing Limited running ISAs branded iWeb and Lloyds. It is also the case that Virgin itself is advising customers to choose YBS or Clydesdale as their ISA manager when transferring out, rightly or wrongly. Others have reported following these instructions does not cause confusion, and their ISAs were successfully transferred after doing this.

When you enter Virgin Money as your ISA provider, it is no surprise that chaos ensues, just look at this mess at Companies House: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/search?q=virgin+money

Regarding TISA, this is the main system for electronic ISA transfers. This is probably what was used in your case as you said the transfer happened almost straight away when you provided Barclays with the correct Service User Number (SUN) or 'code'. Had it been a paper-based transfer, it would have taken a few more days. Agree that the text you've quoted from my link, but this is the part I'd have put in bold:

35har1old said:

TISA maintains two secure databases containing the contact details of ISA providers as well as the Service User Number (SUN) details for electronic messaging. These databases are for access only by other ISA providers, for the purpose of resolving and escalating protracted transfer issues. All ISA providers should keep their contact details up to date at all times on both databases to support the correct direction of transfers and other communications between providers. Contact details should include telephone, email and address and office working hours, for telephone contact in particular. The TISA databases should also be populated with contact details of where to refer Transfer Out / Transfer In correspondence – as this can distinguish between where ISA providers want the initial request correspondence to be directed (e.g. central address or

It must be Virgin's failure to keep their entry/entries on this database current that has led to your situation. The SUN is equivalent to an email address used to send and receive messages on the messaging system. When an ISA transfer form is completed, the customer provides the name of the old ISA manager, and the new ISA manager uses the database to look up the relevant SUN in the TISA database in order to start communicating with them about the transfer. Virgin has clearly failed to associate the correct SUN with their record, which is why Barclays could not send these transfer messages to the correct place. It seems pretty clear now that the code Virgin gave you to pass on to Barclays was the SUN, and it is their own failing that their records on the TISA database were not updated appropriately that it could be found there. Maybe Virgin should be pulled from the TISA database, and transfers fall back to paper. At least then they can be internally forwarded to the correct place if misdirected to the wrong group company.

35har1old said:

 Its not up to the client to provide the code

Agree entirely with this, it is up to Virgin to update its information on the TISA database. Unless and until it registers its parent company as an ISA manager with HMRC, and sorts out the TISA database, things like this are going to continue happening, and Virgin's published workaround to choose YBS/Clydesdale as ISA manager depending on sort code will remain the best option for someone wishing to have a smooth transfer experience in the first instance, though it is clearly no guarantee.

Those for whom the workaround advised by Virgin does not work, again, only have Virgin to blame for this. You've highlighted that this is far from foolproof (e.g. what should you do with a sort code starting 05?, easy to be misled by the sort code checker where all show as Clydesdale Bank) and that it isn't possible to deduce the correct company to select in every case. So neither the client nor the new ISA manager can be expected in all cases to identify the correct company name or SUN based on what information they have at their disposal.

Could not agree more with the previous poster who resolved to give all of this chaos a wide berth.

35har1old

masonic said:

Your several posts above just highlight what a complete mess Virgin has made of all of this. I agree that clients should not have to provide a code to their new ISA manager to have their transfer processed. A code is clearly not required as transfers not involving Virgin work just fine using just the name of the ISA manager.

The branding of the ISA is not relevant, so despite the fact they are called "Virgin Money" ISAs, the actual ISA manager cannot be either Virgin Money Limited or Virgin Money PLC because neither of those companies is authorised by HMRC to offer cash ISAs. If either were offering cash ISAs directly, then these would not be valid tax free accounts according to HMRC rules and clients would be at risk of being landed with a tax bill when this emerged. However, there is little risk of this as nothing you posted suggests Virgin PLC is the underlying ISA manager for these accounts, in fact, the text you quoted shows it is just the brand name (my emphasis):

35har1old said:

From February 2022, our Savings range will be available under the Virgin Money brand, the perfect combination of expertise and Virgin innovation.

This is equivalent to Halifax Sharedealing Limited running ISAs branded iWeb and Lloyds. It is also the case that Virgin itself is advising customers to choose YBS or Clydesdale as their ISA manager when transferring out, rightly or wrongly. Others have reported following these instructions does not cause confusion, and their ISAs were successfully transferred after doing this.

When you enter Virgin Money as your ISA provider, it is no surprise that chaos ensues, just look at this mess at Companies House: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/search?q=virgin+money

Regarding TISA, this is the main system for electronic ISA transfers. This is probably what was used in your case as you said the transfer happened almost straight away when you provided Barclays with the correct Service User Number (SUN) or 'code'. Had it been a paper-based transfer, it would have taken a few more days. Agree that the text you've quoted from my link, but this is the part I'd have put in bold:

35har1old said:

TISA maintains two secure databases containing the contact details of ISA providers as well as the Service User Number (SUN) details for electronic messaging. These databases are for access only by other ISA providers, for the purpose of resolving and escalating protracted transfer issues. All ISA providers should keep their contact details up to date at all times on both databases to support the correct direction of transfers and other communications between providers. Contact details should include telephone, email and address and office working hours, for telephone contact in particular. The TISA databases should also be populated with contact details of where to refer Transfer Out / Transfer In correspondence – as this can distinguish between where ISA providers want the initial request correspondence to be directed (e.g. central address or

It must be Virgin's failure to keep their entry/entries on this database current that has led to your situation. The SUN is equivalent to an email address used to send and receive messages on the messaging system. When an ISA transfer form is completed, the customer provides the name of the old ISA manager, and the new ISA manager uses the database to look up the relevant SUN in the TISA database in order to start communicating with them about the transfer. Virgin has clearly failed to associate the correct SUN with their record, which is why Barclays could not send these transfer messages to the correct place. It seems pretty clear now that the code Virgin gave you to pass on to Barclays was the SUN, and it is their own failing that their records on the TISA database were not updated appropriately that it could be found there. Maybe Virgin should be pulled from the TISA database, and transfers fall back to paper. At least then they can be internally forwarded to the correct place if misdirected to the wrong group company.

35har1old said:

 Its not up to the client to provide the code

Agree entirely with this, it is up to Virgin to update its information on the TISA database. Unless and until it registers its parent company as an ISA manager with HMRC, and sorts out the TISA database, things like this are going to continue happening, and Virgin's published workaround to choose YBS/Clydesdale as ISA manager depending on sort code will remain the best option for someone wishing to have a smooth transfer experience in the first instance, though it is clearly no guarantee.

Those for whom the workaround advised by Virgin does not work, again, only have Virgin to blame for this. You've highlighted that this is far from foolproof (e.g. what should you do with a sort code starting 05?, easy to be misled by the sort code checker where all show as Clydesdale Bank) and that it isn't possible to deduce the correct company to select in every case. So neither the client nor the new ISA manager can be expected in all cases to identify the correct company name or SUN based on what information they have at their disposal.

Could not agree more with the previous poster who resolved to give all of this chaos a wide berth.

Have searched through the Barclays site and did not find a paper ISA transfer request form.
At the moment Barclays are restricting excess by only allowing opening of this account via app

masonic

35har1old said:

Have searched through the Barclays site and did not find a paper ISA transfer request form.
At the moment Barclays are restricting excess by only allowing opening of this account via app

I'm not familiar with Barclays' processes, but often a paper-based transfer starts with an online transfer form, which is then printed out and signed. They will have the capability to perform paper transfers, as there are still lots of ISA providers that don't support electronic transfers. This probably wouldn't be available as an option if Barclays believes it can arrange the transfer electronically.

35har1old

masonic said:

35har1old said:

Have searched through the Barclays site and did not find a paper ISA transfer request form.
At the moment Barclays are restricting excess by only allowing opening of this account via app

I'm not familiar with Barclays' processes, but often a paper-based transfer starts with an online transfer form, which is then printed out and signed. They will have the capability to perform paper transfers, as there are still lots of ISA providers that don't support electronic transfers. This probably wouldn't be available as an option if Barclays believes it can arrange the transfer electronically.

Had a problem with a current account switch to Barclays I was then told to fill out a paper switch form posted it away heard nothing after awhile phoned to enquire about progress.and was told oh no you can't use a paper switch with a bank that has a online switch                                                                        Barclays does not produce a form you could print out and sign 
They only issue you a receipt which states your details have been forwarded to you provider

masonic

35har1old said:

masonic said:

35har1old said:

Have searched through the Barclays site and did not find a paper ISA transfer request form.
At the moment Barclays are restricting excess by only allowing opening of this account via app

I'm not familiar with Barclays' processes, but often a paper-based transfer starts with an online transfer form, which is then printed out and signed. They will have the capability to perform paper transfers, as there are still lots of ISA providers that don't support electronic transfers. This probably wouldn't be available as an option if Barclays believes it can arrange the transfer electronically.

Had a problem with a current account switch to Barclays I was then told to fill out a paper switch form posted it away heard nothing after awhile phoned to enquire about progress.and was told oh no you can't use a paper switch with a bank that has a online switch 

That's something they must have dug up from the archives! The 7-day current account switch is pretty much all you see these days. It's generally simpler to manually switch payments yourself if that doesn't work for you. Updating DD details is very often an online process, and standing orders can be looked up and replicated through online banking in less time that it takes to get to a post box (assuming you don't have many).

35har1old

Ulrich said:

Hi All,

I'm a bit stuck and need some help on how to deal with my catch 22 problem.

20 Jan I opened a cash ISA account with Barclays (online) and filled in a transfer form of my cash ISA with Virgin Money (took sort code and account number from my VM app).
On 11 Feb Barclays sent me a letter saying than Clydesdale bank (!) was unable to locate the account I asked to transfer to Barclays.

Phoned VM - they said they confirmed they can see my cash ISA but said they had not received any transfer requests and advised to contact Barclays.
Barclays said the request was declined on 23 Jan (!!) and said check with VM if there is anything else I need to give to Barclays to make the transfer.
Phoned VM and in parallel asked in chat - they said the only data I need to provide to a new bank is my full name, sort code, account number and amount, exactly what I initially did.
Phoned Barclays - they tried to convince me that there must be something like roll number as their initial request was declined. I explained that VM did not give me any extra information and asked Barclays to make another transfer request on 17 Feb.

As of today (23 Feb) I can see money in my cash ISA with VM so I assume the second request was declined, too (will phone Barclays later to check transfer status).
Honestly, I'm a bit fed up with this as a) it takes a lot of time, b) I am losing money as Barclays pay 4% instead of 3% VM and c) I have no idea how to make that transfer happen because in theory I have provided the right data to Barclays but they cannot complete the transfer and send me to VM, who send me back to Barclays, catch 22.

So how should I deal with this problem?

My transfer has completed on 23rd working day.No notification yet of transfer.Awaiting a reply to letter sent
I have never been contacted by Barclays since I requested the transfer I have always contacted them.

[Deleted User]

Recently I complained to both Barclays and VM regarding the situation.

VM replied with a piece of information I don't quite understand and would appreciate if anybody could comment if it makes sense.

"Any issue you had faced with regards to the request was due to the fact that Barclays has not updated their own systems to reflect Clydesdale bank is now Virgin Money with sort code starting 82".

As far as I remember, in the transfer request form I selected "Virgin Money" and entered the sort code that starts with 82.
In the letter from Barclays regarding my request they referred to information from Clydesdale bank.

So do all banks use the same system or each one is responsible for maintaining and updating their own ones (can't believe in it tbh)? Who is at fault here?
Generally, it's still a very stupid situation as each party says "THEY did something wrong" so how can a customer make them responsible for the loss of time and money?

And Barclays is a mess, they are absolutely useless as they haven't sent me the final response to my complaint from Feb 2023 yet despite me contacting their CEO.
They even keep on sending transfer requests to VM regarding the account that was already transferred out months ago, just received another letter from them.

masonic

Deleted_User said:

As far as I remember, in the transfer request form I selected "Virgin Money" and entered the sort code that starts with 82.
In the letter from Barclays regarding my request they referred to information from Clydesdale bank.

So do all banks use the same system or each one is responsible for maintaining and updating their own ones (can't believe in it tbh)? Who is at fault here?
Generally, it's still a very stupid situation as each party says "THEY did something wrong" so how can a customer make them responsible for the loss of time and money?

All banks use the same list of authorised ISA managers, either direct from HMRC or via the electronic transfer system maintained by TISA. You can check the HMRC list of authorised ISA managers at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/list-of-individual-savings-account-isa-managers-approved-by-hmrc/registered-individual-savings-account-isa-managers#registered-names-v

This will allow you to verify that Virgin Money is not authorised by HMRC to provide cash ISAs, whereas Clydesdale Bank plc is.

Furthermore, Virgin Money plc is no longer FCA authorised as it no longer operates the Virgin Money brand. Clydesdale Bank plc now owns and uses "Virgin Money" as a brand name, so the correct company to reference is, as Barclays stated, Clydesdale Bank plc. This is what should be entered on the transfer form, as the Virgin Money brand website states in its FAQ pages.