Carflow PCN - Debt collector stage

1505grandad

Per Newbies:-

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2018-02-02/debates/CC84AF5E-AC6E-4E14-81B1-066E6A892807/Parking(CodeOfPractice)Bill

''Rip-offs from car park Cowboys must stop''; unfair treatment; signage deliberately confusing to ensure a PCN is issued; ''years of abuse by rogue parking companies''; bloodsuckers; ''the current system of regulation is hopeless, like putting Dracula in charge of the blood-bank''; extortionate fines; rogue operators; ''sense of injustice''; unfair charges and notices; wilfully misleading; signage is a deliberate act to deceive or mislead; ''confusing signs are often deliberate, to trap innocent drivers''; unreasonable; a curse; harassing; operating in a disgusting way; appeals service is no guarantee of a fair hearing; loathed; outrageous scam; dodgy practice; outrageous abuse; unscrupulous practices; ''the British Parking Association is as much use as a multi-storey car park in the Gobi desert''; and finally, by way of unanimous conclusion: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists and ordinary residents should not have to put up with this''.

These are the exact words used, so you should quote them to your MP in a complaint.

fivestarsamz

Coupon-mad said:

Dear Carflow,

Stop misleading the keeper about liability.

Stop sending letters to the keeper.

The 28 days is in your cloud cuckoo land imagination and not in the law you quoted.  You have not 'begun proceedings' so you must now revert to the known driver and send them a Parking Charge Notice.

I am aware that your top banana sits at Director level at the BPA, presumably involved in decision-making and will be well aware of this published article commissioned by the BPA:

http://portfolio.cpl.co.uk/Parking-News/395/26/

Might be worth you reading that.  If you still struggle to understand it, I suggest you should seek legal advice.  I hear that your mate Derek Millard-Smith at your 'Law Line' agrees with that article so it is odd that Carflow pretend otherwise.

Carflow also stands in breach of the BPA CoP which states that once you know who was driving you must not pursue the keeper. Obviously.  Because that's the law,  I suggest you get your house in order in readiness for the new statutory Code of Practice or you could be in danger of it wiping your firm out due to complaints.

yours faithfully,

Okay after sending them the email beautifully written by Coupon-mad, the RK received a reply. 

Dear (RK),

Thank you for getting in touch with Carflow again.

We reject your suggestion that we have misled anyone.

The article you have provided states that the term in question is not fully or sufficiently detailed within the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. While we stand by our interpretation that debt recovery would be covered by "proceedings to recover the unpaid parking charges from the keeper” we are also aware that there is an ambiguity to the wording of legislation. As such, we are willing to compromise and will transfer liability to the driver.

We are unsure what you mean by “these cases” which are “always lost by parking operators”. Carflow are fully compliant with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and the British Parking Association Code of Practice and have found this to be confirmed regularly in court.

Carflow have at no point suggested to anyone that it would not be possible to only enter a single digit when purchasing a ticket. This site uses Automatic Number Plate Recognition cameras (ANPR). These cameras capture timestamped images of vehicles as they enter and exit the site and this information is then compared with our payment records. If the camera data does not match any purchased ticket, a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) will be issued.

A ticket machine cannot establish if a vehicle registration is being entered correctly. It is for this reason that it is essential motorists enter their full and correct vehicle registration. Only by doing so can their payment can be assigned to their vehicle. Ticket machines are set up for any vehicle registration to be entered, such as personal or foreign registration plates, consisting of any alpha numerical order.

Users are not able to proceed to payment without verifying the VRN that they have entered and this is then provided to them on the ticket they receive as further evidence. The need to enter a full and correct VRN is clearly outlined on the signage in the car park and forms part of the contract that the motorist enters into when they choose to remain in the car park. Carflow cannot be held accountable if inaccurate information has been passed on by third parties as this was unknown to us.

To confirm, liability has passed to the driver.

Kind Regards,

Carflow Team

So it seems BPA are lying or are being lied to. I think another BPA complaint is due.

Well at least they transferred liability. I am guessing now the driver waits for a letter from carflow. 

Coupon-mad

Haha!  ...they tried to hide this at the ebd:

"To confirm, liability has passed to the driver."

Fruitcake

"A ticket machine cannot establish if a vehicle registration is being entered correctly."

Yes it can by including a simple sub-routine into the ANPR to ticket machine computer code such that the ticket machine only accepts the VRM of a vehicle actually present that has been correctly captured by the ANPR system.
If an incorrect VRM is entered, or the ANPR scamera system misinterprets the VRM in its image to VRM Optical Character Recognition software, then an error message should be displayed on the ticket machine to warn the motorist that an error has occurred. This is what an ethical company should have in place, something that yopur company claims to be: -

Carflow - Home

• We aim to be the most ethical operator in the market, ensuring there is no friction between our clients and their customers.

To suggest otherwise is a fallacy.

Perhaps you need to have a training session with your IT department or IT contractor who can then explain what you and your ANPR/ticket machines are doing wrong, and what you should now do since you and your company have a moral duty to get a motorist's reg right.

Perhaps you should also refresh your memory of what your company website says.

ANPR - Carflow

"Pay & Display (P&D) car parks – our system is fully integrated with P&D machines ..."

fivestarsamz

Fruitcake said:

"A ticket machine cannot establish if a vehicle registration is being entered correctly."

Yes it can by including a simple sub-routine into the ANPR to ticket machine computer code such that the ticket machine only accepts the VRM of a vehicle actually present that has been correctly captured by the ANPR system.
If an incorrect VRM is entered, or the ANPR scamera system misinterprets the VRM in its image to VRM Optical Character Recognition software, then an error message should be displayed on the ticket machine to warn the motorist that an error has occurred. This is what an ethical company should have in place, something that yopur company claims to be: -

Carflow - Home

• We aim to be the most ethical operator in the market, ensuring there is no friction between our clients and their customers.

To suggest otherwise is a fallacy.

Perhaps you need to have a training session with your IT department or IT contractor who can then explain what you and your ANPR/ticket machines are doing wrong, and what you should now do since you and your company have a moral duty to get a motorist's reg right.

Perhaps you should also refresh your memory of what your company website says.

ANPR - Carflow

"Pay & Display (P&D) car parks – our system is fully integrated with P&D machines ..."

Very true! I will get the RK to actually reply to them with this 

B789

Fruitcake said:

"Yes it can by including a simple sub-routine into the ANPR to ticket machine computer code such that the ticket machine only accepts the VRM of a vehicle actually present that has been correctly captured by the ANPR system.
If an incorrect VRM is entered, or the ANPR scamera system misinterprets the VRM in its image to VRM Optical Character Recognition software, then an error message should be displayed on the ticket machine to warn the motorist that an error has occurred. This is what an ethical company should have in place, something that yopur company claims to be: -

Carflow - Home

We aim to be the most ethical operator in the market, ensuring there is no friction between our clients and their customers.

ANPR - Carflow

"Pay & Display (P&D) car parks – our system is fully integrated with P&D machines ..."

But that would cost them money to implement and reduce their income stream... never gonna happen unless they are regulated to do so.

Fruitcake

fivestarsamz said:

Fruitcake said:

"A ticket machine cannot establish if a vehicle registration is being entered correctly."

Yes it can by including a simple sub-routine into the ANPR to ticket machine computer code such that the ticket machine only accepts the VRM of a vehicle actually present that has been correctly captured by the ANPR system.
If an incorrect VRM is entered, or the ANPR scamera system misinterprets the VRM in its image to VRM Optical Character Recognition software, then an error message should be displayed on the ticket machine to warn the motorist that an error has occurred. This is what an ethical company should have in place, something that yopur company claims to be: -

Carflow - Home

• We aim to be the most ethical operator in the market, ensuring there is no friction between our clients and their customers.

To suggest otherwise is a fallacy.

Perhaps you need to have a training session with your IT department or IT contractor who can then explain what you and your ANPR/ticket machines are doing wrong, and what you should now do since you and your company have a moral duty to get a motorist's reg right.

Perhaps you should also refresh your memory of what your company website says.

ANPR - Carflow

"Pay & Display (P&D) car parks – our system is fully integrated with P&D machines ..."

Very true! I will get the RK to actually reply to them with this 

Also instruct their DPO to erase the keeper's personal data since liability has now been transferred to the driver such that Carflow no longer have a reason to retain or process this data.
Make sure you use the word I have highlighted as it has a specific meaning where data is concerned.

If they refuse, complain to the BPA and the ICO and the keeper's MP.

Irrespective of whether or not they agree to erase the keeper's data, the keeper should send an SAR a month later to see what they have done, and make complaints accordingly.

fivestarsamz

Fruitcake said:

fivestarsamz said:

Fruitcake said:

"A ticket machine cannot establish if a vehicle registration is being entered correctly."

Yes it can by including a simple sub-routine into the ANPR to ticket machine computer code such that the ticket machine only accepts the VRM of a vehicle actually present that has been correctly captured by the ANPR system.
If an incorrect VRM is entered, or the ANPR scamera system misinterprets the VRM in its image to VRM Optical Character Recognition software, then an error message should be displayed on the ticket machine to warn the motorist that an error has occurred. This is what an ethical company should have in place, something that yopur company claims to be: -

Carflow - Home

• We aim to be the most ethical operator in the market, ensuring there is no friction between our clients and their customers.

To suggest otherwise is a fallacy.

Perhaps you need to have a training session with your IT department or IT contractor who can then explain what you and your ANPR/ticket machines are doing wrong, and what you should now do since you and your company have a moral duty to get a motorist's reg right.

Perhaps you should also refresh your memory of what your company website says.

ANPR - Carflow

"Pay & Display (P&D) car parks – our system is fully integrated with P&D machines ..."

Very true! I will get the RK to actually reply to them with this 

Also instruct their DPO to erase the keeper's personal data since liability has now been transferred to the driver such that Carflow no longer have a reason to retain or process this data.
Make sure you use the word I have highlighted as it has a specific meaning where data is concerned.

If they refuse, complain to the BPA and the ICO and the keeper's MP.

Irrespective of whether or not they agree to erase the keeper's data, the keeper should send an SAR a month later to see what they have done, and make complaints accordingly.

Well the keeper has a upcoming county court hearing coming up with carflow in July for a different PCN so i guess that is one reason for them to keep the RK data. But the keeper did do a SAR before with no response. Will ask RK to send them another email about giving them a week to fix the SAR situation from before otherwise a complain to BPA and the ICO will be due. 

fivestarsamz

fivestarsamz said:

Fruitcake said:

fivestarsamz said:

Fruitcake said:

"A ticket machine cannot establish if a vehicle registration is being entered correctly."

Yes it can by including a simple sub-routine into the ANPR to ticket machine computer code such that the ticket machine only accepts the VRM of a vehicle actually present that has been correctly captured by the ANPR system.
If an incorrect VRM is entered, or the ANPR scamera system misinterprets the VRM in its image to VRM Optical Character Recognition software, then an error message should be displayed on the ticket machine to warn the motorist that an error has occurred. This is what an ethical company should have in place, something that yopur company claims to be: -

Carflow - Home

• We aim to be the most ethical operator in the market, ensuring there is no friction between our clients and their customers.

To suggest otherwise is a fallacy.

Perhaps you need to have a training session with your IT department or IT contractor who can then explain what you and your ANPR/ticket machines are doing wrong, and what you should now do since you and your company have a moral duty to get a motorist's reg right.

Perhaps you should also refresh your memory of what your company website says.

ANPR - Carflow

"Pay & Display (P&D) car parks – our system is fully integrated with P&D machines ..."

Very true! I will get the RK to actually reply to them with this 

Also instruct their DPO to erase the keeper's personal data since liability has now been transferred to the driver such that Carflow no longer have a reason to retain or process this data.
Make sure you use the word I have highlighted as it has a specific meaning where data is concerned.

If they refuse, complain to the BPA and the ICO and the keeper's MP.

Irrespective of whether or not they agree to erase the keeper's data, the keeper should send an SAR a month later to see what they have done, and make complaints accordingly.

Well the keeper has a upcoming county court hearing coming up with carflow in July for a different PCN so i guess that is one reason for them to keep the RK data. But the keeper did do a SAR before with no response. Will ask RK to send them another email about giving them a week to fix the SAR situation from before otherwise a complain to BPA and the ICO will be due. 

I wonder how you guys do it. I am helping with like 5 different PCN from different RK and drivers and I'm getting confused already, you all get thousands of PCN coming in!! I got it confused about the whole county court hearing, it was actually with a different parking operator, not carflow. So I sent the request of erasure. 

Anyways, small update on this PCN. I think it will be better for me to not open a new thread so there's some background to the situation. But the driver now received the PCN from carflow: 





{Image removed by forum team}



Considering the situation, is it worth for the driver to try and find someone to complain to? I don't know who to find exactly. for the broadway surface car park in Crawley. 


Regardless, here is what I can send for the driver to send as an appeal, even though i know it will get rejected. What do you think?  

Dear Carflow,

I am writing to formally appeal against the parking charge notice [reference number] issued to me on 10/05/2023. I have been charged for an alleged parking violation despite having paid for the ticket using the parking pay and display machine at the designated parking area.

During the payment process, I encountered a technical issue with the pay and display machine. After inserting the required payment and attempting to input my vehicle's registration number, the machine malfunctioned and only allowed me to input the first letter before dispensing the ticket. As a result, I was unable to input the full registration number.

I can provide evidence to support my claim. I have a copy of the parking ticket clearly showing the payment made, as well as the single letter 'C' on the ticket backing up my claim. This demonstrates that I actively sought to comply with the parking regulations by making the necessary payment.

I believe that this issue was caused by a technical malfunction of the pay and display machine, which prevented me from inputting my complete registration number as required. Consequently, the parking charge notice issued against me is unfounded, as it fails to consider the circumstances beyond my control.

I kindly request that you review my appeal, take into account the evidence provided, and dismiss the parking charge notice accordingly. I trust that you will conduct a fair and impartial assessment of the situation and come to a just resolution.

Please confirm the receipt of this appeal and provide information on the next steps in the appeals process. I look forward to a prompt response and the successful resolution of this matter.

Thank you for your attention to this appeal.

Yours faithfully,

Coupon-mad

Yep that's fine.  They will offer settlement at £20.