virtual meters

MattMattMattUK

danco said:

You may be right, but it is not clear that a 'virtual meter' as described by our metering company is a meter under the regulations.

It is a measuring device or system to allow them to measure the energy usage, on a communal system that is how they operate as the heat is generated centrally and then usage calculated based on distribution rather than directly from the energy inputted into the system (eg for gas or electricity which you use on premises the calculation is much simpler. I think you keep re-reading the regulations is not going to get you anywhere, the system measures your energy usage and there is no way to fit a traditional meter as they are distributing heat / thermal energy which has to be measured in a different way to measuring a fuel or electricity supply. If an energy supplier provides 1kWh of electricity then you get 1 kWh of electricity, if an energy supplier provides 1 m3 of gas then you get 11.2 kWh of energy (with minor variations due to calorific value), both of those are very simple things to measure.

The communal systems will nominally need to measure the flow rate and the temperature of that flow of the working fluid to calculate kWh provided, that requires a minimum of two sensors working in tandem and likely more as the system will may well pump working fluid around the whole site on a larger loop with diversion valves and need to measure the return flow from your property as well to calculate the energy extracted from the flow through your individual property, there may also be other factors based on the whole system. That means that there is not an easy "meter" that can be installed for you, the system will have to be "virtual" as it is calculated based on a combination of various data points.

There is a very good argument that they have the ability to provide you with more granular data and I would be pushing for that, the system almost certainly has the ability to generate that data and likely it already exists within whatever they are exporting from the system. However the idea of you getting a physical meter is dead in the water, the regulations do not provide for it based on the way this system likely operates nor is in all probability is it technically possible. 

danco

I do realise that i may be hitting my head againsts a brick wall. But i represent the leaseholders of a block of flats who are totally dissatisfied with the technical and metering/billing aspects of our heating, and the many admitted errors the developers have made. If hitting my head against a wall provides a crack that will help us get a satisfactory system the effort will be worth it.

MattMattMattUK

danco said:

I do realise that i may be hitting my head againsts a brick wall. But i represent the leaseholders of a block of flats who are totally dissatisfied with the technical and metering/billing aspects of our heating, and the many admitted errors the developers have made. If hitting my head against a wall provides a crack that will help us get a satisfactory system the effort will be worth it.

Hitting your head against the wall will give you a headache, followed by concussion and if you persist brain damage, find a stick and beat them with that instead.

You have said that there are issues with the system that they have admitted to, if you are the head of the leaseholders association then the the task is to force them to fix those issues, charging off trying to make an issue out of something which is not an issue and which their legal department will be able to tell them has no grounds is only going to waste your time and make you seem incompetent to them.

There are many knowledgeable people on here who if you want to look at getting the actual issues resolved will be able to share the relevant knowledge to help you do that. What are the actual issues with the communal heating system, remember to take the emotion out of it, if there is a technical fault, the system not operating properly etc. then that can be fixed, something not operating in the way you want it to, but operating correctly is not a fault and you will never get it fixed, eg. you want a physical meter, that is never going to happen no matter how hard you scream, but there may be a path to a more detailed breakdown of residents energy usage.

MWT

Unfortunately I am not aware of anything in the regulations that requires anything more granular than the bills they are already receiving.

It would require good-will on the part of the provider and it doesn't seem like there is much of that available...

danco

Oh, no-one on the forums could possibly deal with the technical issues. It would make a good comedy if one wasn't involved.

Us: we think the bills are high. Can you investigate the system.

Developers: we will call in a consultant.
Their consultant: each flat has filters. It would help if they were cleaned (among other remarks)
Them: no there are no filter in the flats (repeated several times)
One of us (fed up with very little heat despite high bills has an engineer investigate and fins there are filters. After cleaning them his flat now has heat.
Them: oh, sorry, yes there are filters. We'll get them cleaned.
Most filters ger cleaned. But for one of mine (and some other flats) get told the filter is visible but there is no way of accessing it. An access hatch will have to be cut,
They have agreed we are due compensation, but no details have yet been discussed.

And that's the current situation. There are other issues too.

You can see why we are frustrated, and why I am concentrating on trying to get better meter information.

Anyway, i have discovered that the OPSS (office for product safety and standards) are in charge of enforcing the regulations and that they do take complaints from customers. So i have asked them if the system as described to us is compliant with the currebt version of the regulations. As you say, quite likely it is, but anyway their response should clarify things

As regards granular billing for the current system, which would help a lot, the developers have asked the metering company if this can be done, but at present the meters say not. This is being discussed

danco

I have now been in touch with the OPSS, who are interested in looking into the situation. To my surprise, they said it depnded on whether the system was heat pump or HVAC. I can see that HVAC is not a communal network under the regulations, but i can't see any mention of heat pumps anywhere. Our building has a heat pump but i don't know how much of the heating it provides