virtual meters

danco

Ultimately the problem is that there have been many problems with the heating system, both physically and in billing. The freeholders have agreed that we are due compensation, but details have not yet been discussed. The result has been that nobody has any confidence in their bills. We are billed monthly based on how long the fans are running (iit is a warm air system)  and there is nothing that we are able to read ourselves. That makes it almost impossible to see how usage is affected by adjusting the time the system is on or the chosen temperature. We are looking for ways to put pressure to make changes, I was hoping that the system was not compliant, which would provide a reason to have readable meters installed. But the suggestion of Schedule 1 does suggest that the virtual meters are allowable if the company has done its paperwork correctly.

As to Matty's question about research into heat networks, I did some. They seem in principle a good idea. There is some regulation, with more due to come in. The pricing for our heat used seems reasonable. However, several of us feel that the alleged usage is far too high to be accurate. That may well be due to the physical problems that we know exist.

MattMattMattUK

MWT said:

MattMattMattUK said:

I cannot see an issue with this and you seem to be going out of your way to try and create one. From the regulations this is far from the "complicated legal waters" you seem to want it to become. You will get a bill based on your usage, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that.

You are right, the legal side isn't complicated, but I do understand the OPs concern about 'Virtual meters' as they are just a calculation based on whatever sensor data they do have to infer what their use might be, rather than an actual measurement of their use.

I would suspect that in a communal heating system sensors would probably be the only way to give a valid output figure as there is not gas to be metered, but just distributed heat which is distributed via the working fluid so the only way would be to measure the flow rate of the working fluid (and possibly temperature) using various sensors, I suspect that it would be impossible to install a "meter" in the traditional sense.

MWT said:

Unfortunately as long as they meet the standards in 'Schedule 1' they are allowed to do this and it could be as basic as taking the total costs for the heating system and apportioning them based on number/size of radiators and sq ft of the apartment if there are no sensors already installed elsewhere...

You are right that it could be that basic but I strongly suspect it would be based on flow rate and possibly temperature of the working fluid then apportion the costs according to that.

MattMattMattUK

danco said:

Ultimately the problem is that there have been many problems with the heating system, both physically and in billing. The freeholders have agreed that we are due compensation, but details have not yet been discussed. The result has been that nobody has any confidence in their bills. We are billed monthly based on how long the fans are running (iit is a warm air system)  and there is nothing that we are able to read ourselves. That makes it almost impossible to see how usage is affected by adjusting the time the system is on or the chosen temperature. We are looking for ways to put pressure to make changes, I was hoping that the system was not compliant, which would provide a reason to have readable meters installed. But the suggestion of Schedule 1 does suggest that the virtual meters are allowable if the company has done its paperwork correctly.

As to Matty's question about research into heat networks, I did some. They seem in principle a good idea. There is some regulation, with more due to come in. The pricing for our heat used seems reasonable. However, several of us feel that the alleged usage is far too high to be accurate. That may well be due to the physical problems that we know exist.

I think you are conflating two issues here, metering method and accessibility of the readings. Just because the system is virtual does not mean that it should not be able to give you some visibility of usage, however there may be a problem if that information is understandable by a layman. With a heated air system it would always have to be virtual system, there would be no way to reliably measure it using a physical meter, there is also no reason why you could not be given ongoing visibility of that figure, even it was only available the following day.

Where that might get complicated is what it actually records and how that is managed and that will be based on the architecture of the system, eg. is the air heated centrally and distributed, is heat distributed via water and that is then converted to blown air either in individual properties or in small groups and then finally how when the heat is used is the usage accounted for. Eg. do they take the kWh of gas used and divided that by the units of heat used, is the heat usage fixed as a kWh charge to individual properties and then how is that individual usage attributed. 

danco

That's useful information. I didn't realise that a hot air system would have to be virtual. That would not matter if we could see the figures daily. At present we are billed monthly, and the billing company don't seem inclined to change this/ Maybe we can get them to do things differently.

As to the sytem, the heat is distributed by VRF (that is, a liquid other than water) and converted to warm air in individual flats. They measure how long the fan has been on and convert this into consumption

danco

What the billing company currently say about frequency of billing is

to gather billing data for this supply Switch 2 have to manually extract it from the head end before importing it into our billing database, therefore consumption data can only be presented monthly in arrears.

MattMattMattUK

danco said:

What the billing company currently say about frequency of billing is

to gather billing data for this supply Switch 2 have to manually extract it from the head end before importing it into our billing database, therefore consumption data can only be presented monthly in arrears.

I would suspect that they could probably make it real time if they were really inclined to do so, it would not be too difficult to implement a solution, however they likely to not want to and unfortunately you cannot make them. 

I think this is more a case of you have to live with the system not providing granular billing as that is what you initially signed up for, though you have mentioned ongoing issues with the system and you certainly have a right to have those rectified. 

danco

yes, i think i agree with you. We can press for granular billing, particularly in view of the other problems, but can't reqyure it.

This discussion has been very helpful.

danco

Looking at the regulations further, as a block of flats it seems to me that it falls into the open class. That means individual meters must be installed if it is cost-effective and tecnically feasible to do so. Of course I have no idea of cost-effectiveness. But does it seem likel that it is  technically possible?

MattMattMattUK

It does not seem like it is based on the nature of the system in the way you want it to be. There is a meter on the system, that is how they bill you, there is not going to be the same style of meter as a non communal heating system.

danco

You may be right, but it is not clear that a 'virtual meter' as described by our metering company is a meter under the regulations.