virtual meters

danco

Has anyone any experience of virtual metering that they can share?

I live in a block of flats where the electricity suppy is individually metered as usual. However, heating is supplied communally and we are charged individually through a virtual metering system.

It seems to me that virtual metering is not appropriate where different people pay for different supplies though it may work well for internal accounting purposes of a single organisation.

Further, I doubt whether virtual meters as opposed to actual physical ones conform to the reguations governing heat networks. We will probably end up having to consult a lawyer. But at the moment I am just asking the heat suppliers to supply evidence that the installation is permitted.

t0rt0ise

danco said:

Has anyone any experience of virtual metering that they can share?

I live in a block of flats where the electricity suppy is individually metered as usual. However, heating is supplied communally and we are charged individually through a virtual metering system.

It seems to me that virtual metering is not appropriate where different people pay for different supplies though it may work well for internal accounting purposes of a single organisation.

Further, I doubt whether virtual meters as opposed to actual physical ones conform to the reguations governing heat networks. We will probably end up having to consult a lawyer. But at the moment I am just asking the heat suppliers to supply evidence that the installation is permitted.

What is the alternative that you would want?

Robin9

Not heat related but we lease a small office in a block of a dozen. The water for the communal toilets is split according to the number of people in the offices rather than by the number of offices.

Keep_pedalling

Your individual electricity meter is purely for your non heating use. Your heating will be a separate supply which is paid for by your landlord. The choices for this system is to charge each flat the same based on cost / number of flats or some sort of metering system.

The former is unfair to low users and provides no incentive to reduce energy consumption. The latter is fairer and will be based on heat meters rather than on electricity or gas meters. Why do you think this would not be permitted?

MWT

danco said:

Further, I doubt whether virtual meters as opposed to actual physical ones conform to the reguations governing heat networks. We will probably end up having to consult a lawyer. But at the moment I am just asking the heat suppliers to supply evidence that the installation is permitted.

There is nothing in the regulations which prevents the use of 'virtual meters' as a charging mechanism as long as the supplier has completed the necessary assessment under Schedule 1 of the regulations to show that it is either not economic or not feasible to install physical metering.

I would suggest asking for a copy of their assessment under Schedule 1...

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/3120/made

matt_drummer

danco said:

Has anyone any experience of virtual metering that they can share?

I live in a block of flats where the electricity suppy is individually metered as usual. However, heating is supplied communally and we are charged individually through a virtual metering system.

It seems to me that virtual metering is not appropriate where different people pay for different supplies though it may work well for internal accounting purposes of a single organisation.

Further, I doubt whether virtual meters as opposed to actual physical ones conform to the reguations governing heat networks. We will probably end up having to consult a lawyer. But at the moment I am just asking the heat suppliers to supply evidence that the installation is permitted.

Do you have any control over the level of heating in each flat?

I have experience of communal heating systems where there is no control inside each flat and they are charged based on the floor are of each flat as a percentage of the total. This is not in the UK though.

danco

Thanks for various replies. Yes, individual heat meters are fine, but we don't like the idea of VIRTUAL meters rather than physical ones, and they don't give us enough information. Also we do have individual control.

Thanks especially for the reference to Schedule 1. As this is a new build block, completed summer 2019, it surely must have been economic and feasible to install physical metering. I have not asked the suppliers specifically about Schedule 1, but have asked them for proof that they comply with the regulations. They have not yet had time to reply. I would in general expect them to have completed the necessary assessment.

Looking at the regulations, I think that it is not clear whether or not virtual meters are acceptable. I think it depends on what is meant by 'instrument' in the definition of heat allocators. But unless this has already been decided, we are getting into complicated legal waters here.

MWT

danco said:

Thanks especially for the reference to Schedule 1. As this is a new build block, completed summer 2019, it surely must have been economic and feasible to install physical metering...

You will probably find that your supplier was not appointed until after the construction was complete, so they may have had no opportunity to influence the design or nature of the heating installation...

danco said:

Looking at the regulations, I think that it is not clear whether or not virtual meters are acceptable. I think it depends on what is meant by 'instrument' in the definition of heat allocators. But unless this has already been decided, we are getting into complicated legal waters here.

I don't think it matters, they have no obligation to install any meters or heat allocators if they can show it is not feasible or cost effective as per Schedule 1.

Their only obligation is that if they do fit a meter or heat allocator they have to use it for billing and must make sure it works accurately.

It doesn't sound like they have any intention of doing that though...

MattMattMattUK

I cannot see an issue with this and you seem to be going out of your way to try and create one. From the regulations this is far from the "complicated legal waters" you seem to want it to become. You will get a bill based on your usage, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that.

Mstty

Out of interest @danco did you research heat networks before purchasing/renting.

From my time on this energy forum I would personally stay clear of them unless it was the only option. 

As far as I am aware heat networks are unregulated which has led to some quite frightening posts on here regarding prices of energy.

I do believe they are covered under the EPG commercial help due to run out 31st March so from 1st April could be interesting.

How much are you being charged?

MWT

MattMattMattUK said:

I cannot see an issue with this and you seem to be going out of your way to try and create one. From the regulations this is far from the "complicated legal waters" you seem to want it to become. You will get a bill based on your usage, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with that.

You are right, the legal side isn't complicated, but I do understand the OPs concern about 'Virtual meters' as they are just a calculation based on whatever sensor data they do have to infer what their use might be, rather than an actual measurement of their use.

Unfortunately as long as they meet the standards in 'Schedule 1' they are allowed to do this and it could be as basic as taking the total costs for the heating system and apportioning them based on number/size of radiators and sq ft of the apartment if there are no sensors already installed elsewhere...