UK CPM Parking Charge Notice

Couldey

Hello, wanted to update on this thread and look to get assistance going forward if possible. 

After looking into appealing this first PCN as above posts, this was mentioned to another family member (mum’s brother) who decided to get involved and paid the £60. That was done within the 14 days. 

Today, mum received a second PCN for the same parking occasion (she’s the registered keeper, not the driver, dad was driving) but the reason this time is ‘Vehicle Not Registered or Exceeded Allowed Time’ 😤

She was not happy about this and doesn’t want to pay. Quick recap, around beginning of Feb 2023, it was dad and gran in the car that parked in this carpark for an appointment, displaying gran’s blue badge. 

Looking at the first PCN I attached above, the ticket he purchased was displayed in the window of the car. It shows 1h, but the parking company are claiming the duration of 1.40hrs from the point of entry to exit going by the pictures in the second PCN?

Do we have a case to appeal? Can this be overturned? 

It feels like they are going for it with us as we have been a sucker to their system once already i.e the first PCN paid. This second PCN has been issued over 1.5 months since the first one. This has definitely wound me up and I’ll be looking to fight all the way regardless of what the family have to say! 

Thank you

KeithP

Yes, now been marked as a 'soft touch'.

Better get 'mum's brother' to dig deep in his pockets again.

Alternatively, this time follow the guidance you were been given for the first ticket.

Coupon-mad

You don't pay these things.

Couldey

Thank you both for your reply. When I asked for a picture of gran’s blue badge first time around, her son decided to get involved and be a hero with his deep pockets.

I will go down the route of contacting the land owner first and taking pictures of the signage at the carpark.

Coupon-mad

Paying a scam to make it go away is not heroic, it is stupid (naive at best). Thank God we aren't all like that...

Couldey

Totally agree, not the first time he’s done similar i.e paying pcn’s that he’s had. But it was also a combination of my gran and uncle trying to resolve it for my mum, as gran felt bad for getting the pcn due to it being her appointment. 

I’ll get hold of the land owners/property managers details to write to them. Thanks.

Couldey

Hello all,

I have some time today to get Plan A done i.e drafting a complaint email to the property management company of the Vista Centre TW4. 

For this second PCN, what points can I use to emphasise ‘Exceeded allowed time’? Mobility will be metioned due to gran being a slow walker using a walking stick, taking time to get from one point to another.

From a previous thread years old I was reading, KeithP found the management company for this site - https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/09210514/officers

Do I need to be emailing either of the directors of the above company ideally? Or the site manager of the Vista Centre? 

Would it be a case of using the following template to the land owner or property management and customising it to this case? 

“Re PCN number: 

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegation and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner.


THE NAME AND POSTAL ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER (OR THE HIRER/LESSEE) GOES HERE, OR IN THE RELEVANT BOX ON THEIR APPEALS PAGE.

THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.“

Thank you

Coupon-mad

No don't use an appeal.

It's a disability discrimination complaint:

Whilst a fixed time period may be sufficient for able-bodied service users, it is not sufficient for someone with severe mobility issues.

There should be a policy of either having a way of exempting Blue Badge holders on the day, or at the very least, alternatively having a policy of cancelling PCNs at first complaint or appeal when such mobility issues are established by the complainant (albeit that second option is shutting the door one by one after each horse has bolted and letting the operator discriminate, and some victims will pay as the family already did once, out of fear).

Extra time and proactively operating a relaxation of (potentially disadvantaging) fixed time policies is required by law, as a reasonable adjustment for disabled service users. This legal duty is highlighted in the 'Tours' example showing 'fixed time limit' discrimination, as published in the EHRC Code of Practice for Services and Public Functions (supplementary guidance to the Equality Act 2010).  That Code is statute law in itself, breach of which is a criminal offence by erring service providers.

This anticipatory duty was also highlighted by a BBC article around the time when the law changed in 2010:

"BBC Breakfast contacted 200 large supermarkets from the four main chains. Of the 124 that imposed parking time limits, about two-thirds said they did not give disabled people any extra time to shop, which is a breach of the law."

Article can be read here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8488737.stm

A full refund of the £60 already paid must be offered alongside an apology, because it was obtained as a result of failing to make reasonable adjustments and failing in the service providers' anticipatory duty to consider the impact of any planned 'fixed' policies on disabled service users.

Avoiding discrimination is never about offering the same fixed terms to all - in fact that's illegal.

There has been a clear breach of statute law (the EA 2010 and the statutory EHRC CoP) and if the £60 paid out of fear for the first PCN is not returned immediately, and both PCNs cancelled, the family will help the victim to sue for it, plus a three figure sum as compensatory damages for distress.  To resolve the issue going forward, this car should now be placed on the site's electronic White List.

B789

There is no "template" for a complaint to a landowner. The template you have quoted above is for a first appeal to the PPC.

Use your own words to make a complaint to the landowner and state why you are making the complaint and that the landowner is jointly liable for the actions of its agents and should this proceed to a court claim, you may call them to be a witness. You can try emailing the head honchos and the managers. Just copy in as many of them as you see fit.

Regarding the second PCN, do a search for posts that mention the Equalities Act 2010 and look for cases where disability is mentioned. Perhaps have a read of the act and see what protected characteristics your Gran has that can be used in your appeal.

Couldey

Thank you to you both 😊 points taken and I’ll post the draft email up here first that I’ll be sending to the Vista Centre/landowners in the coming days. 

Coupon-mad, it looks like you’ve written 99% of it already for us!