Scotland - Property rental agent has invalidated my buildings insurance through mismanagement

gandy666

No one needs to convince a judge of anything as it’s not a judge who would hear the case at the FTT….if it goes that far. Raising a formal complaint with the letting agent could be enough to get the letting agent to drop the £600 exit fee. 

What is the FTT ? Is it this First Tier Tribunal site?  First-Tier Tribunal For Scotland https://www.housingandpropertychamber.scot/

gandy666

_Penny_Dreadful said:

letom said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

letom said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

pramsay13 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

pramsay13 said:

Have the insurance company actually told you that the insurance is invalid? I would be strongly arguing that the property is not empty but that the person is temporarily in the hospital. What would you have done if they had told you? There's nothing practical you could do.
As for the management company I think you have overshot. If you want to terminate the contract you need to go through the process correctly so I think you will find they will win any legal action.

The OP could have got unoccupied insurance until the tenant returned to the property and as for your comment about the letting agent winning any legal action, what a lot of nonsense. Unless you’ve been through the process in Scotland of holding a letting agent to the code of practice set out by the Scottish government perhaps you should refrain from commenting on such a thread. 

Okay I'll bite. What part of the code are you suggesting they have failed to comply with? The OP has decided not telling them about hospital visit amounts to gross mismanagement and unilaterally terminated the contract. 

Like the OP you can read the code yourself and pick out the sections you think the letting agent has failed to comply with. It’s not just failing to tell the OP about the property being left unoccupied but these threats, particularly towards the tenant, about being in breach of contract. The OP had more information than either of us about the situation and the contract with the letting agent so could pick out more. As I said earlier, my experience is that most letting agents cave before it gets to the FTT. What has been your experience of holding letting agents to the code of practice? 

Just out of curiosity what experience do you have e.g. are you a lawyer who has taken on multiple cases (how many) or a landlord who has taken on an agent (how many times?

I am a landlord who has taken on letting agents 3 times using the code of practice and reached a settlement before it goes to the FTT. The whole thing is set up so that you don’t need to use a solicitor. I’d wager that’s 3 times more than anyone else posting on this thread. 

This should be quite useful for the OP then, using that route to get them to drop the fees may be the best bet.

From a legal perspective the breach of contract feels quite weak. The letting agent certainly owes a duty of care to the landlord but convincing a judge that the contract has been materially breached because the landlord doesn't know the ins and out of a landlord's insurance policy is going be quite a tall order. Not to add just breaching a contract doesn't always allow parties to simply exit the agreement, not least because there are no real damages, only theoretical.

No one needs to convince a judge of anything as it’s not a judge who would hear the case at the FTT….if it goes that far. Raising a formal complaint with the letting agent could be enough to get the letting agent to drop the £600 exit fee. 

Penny Dreadful - you seem to know what you are talking about. Is the link that follows correct to begin this process?  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2017/328/schedule/paragraph/95/made

_Penny_Dreadful

gandy666 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

letom said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

letom said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

pramsay13 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

pramsay13 said:

Have the insurance company actually told you that the insurance is invalid? I would be strongly arguing that the property is not empty but that the person is temporarily in the hospital. What would you have done if they had told you? There's nothing practical you could do.
As for the management company I think you have overshot. If you want to terminate the contract you need to go through the process correctly so I think you will find they will win any legal action.

The OP could have got unoccupied insurance until the tenant returned to the property and as for your comment about the letting agent winning any legal action, what a lot of nonsense. Unless you’ve been through the process in Scotland of holding a letting agent to the code of practice set out by the Scottish government perhaps you should refrain from commenting on such a thread. 

Okay I'll bite. What part of the code are you suggesting they have failed to comply with? The OP has decided not telling them about hospital visit amounts to gross mismanagement and unilaterally terminated the contract. 

Like the OP you can read the code yourself and pick out the sections you think the letting agent has failed to comply with. It’s not just failing to tell the OP about the property being left unoccupied but these threats, particularly towards the tenant, about being in breach of contract. The OP had more information than either of us about the situation and the contract with the letting agent so could pick out more. As I said earlier, my experience is that most letting agents cave before it gets to the FTT. What has been your experience of holding letting agents to the code of practice? 

Just out of curiosity what experience do you have e.g. are you a lawyer who has taken on multiple cases (how many) or a landlord who has taken on an agent (how many times?

I am a landlord who has taken on letting agents 3 times using the code of practice and reached a settlement before it goes to the FTT. The whole thing is set up so that you don’t need to use a solicitor. I’d wager that’s 3 times more than anyone else posting on this thread. 

This should be quite useful for the OP then, using that route to get them to drop the fees may be the best bet.

From a legal perspective the breach of contract feels quite weak. The letting agent certainly owes a duty of care to the landlord but convincing a judge that the contract has been materially breached because the landlord doesn't know the ins and out of a landlord's insurance policy is going be quite a tall order. Not to add just breaching a contract doesn't always allow parties to simply exit the agreement, not least because there are no real damages, only theoretical.

No one needs to convince a judge of anything as it’s not a judge who would hear the case at the FTT….if it goes that far. Raising a formal complaint with the letting agent could be enough to get the letting agent to drop the £600 exit fee. 

Penny Dreadful - you seem to know what you are talking about. Is the link that follows correct to begin this process?  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2017/328/schedule/paragraph/95/made

Yes that's the legislation.  How I went about it was using the Letting Agency Code of Practice Notification Letter template from the FTT.  The link is for a Word template for you to fill in and there are accompanying guidance notes.  Go through the Code of Practice and pick out every single clause the letting agent failed to comply with e.g. did the letting agent make you aware that the fee for terminating the contract would be £600 before you went to terminate it.  Then post it off to the letting agent and await their response.

I do understand why you are annoyed as failure to tell you about the property being left unoccupied did leave you vulnerable.  I do wonder if terminating the contract is a slight overreaction or if this is just the latest in a catalogue of failures from the letting agent.  If you aren't already a member of the Scottish Landlords Association (SAL) then it could be worth joining.  I've always found them very helpful whenever I called.  It was actually SAL who talked me through my first letting agent complaint.  I've never been happier since I ditched the letting agents and started managing the properties myself.

gandy666

_Penny_Dreadful said:

gandy666 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

letom said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

letom said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

pramsay13 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

pramsay13 said:

Have the insurance company actually told you that the insurance is invalid? I would be strongly arguing that the property is not empty but that the person is temporarily in the hospital. What would you have done if they had told you? There's nothing practical you could do.
As for the management company I think you have overshot. If you want to terminate the contract you need to go through the process correctly so I think you will find they will win any legal action.

The OP could have got unoccupied insurance until the tenant returned to the property and as for your comment about the letting agent winning any legal action, what a lot of nonsense. Unless you’ve been through the process in Scotland of holding a letting agent to the code of practice set out by the Scottish government perhaps you should refrain from commenting on such a thread. 

Okay I'll bite. What part of the code are you suggesting they have failed to comply with? The OP has decided not telling them about hospital visit amounts to gross mismanagement and unilaterally terminated the contract. 

Like the OP you can read the code yourself and pick out the sections you think the letting agent has failed to comply with. It’s not just failing to tell the OP about the property being left unoccupied but these threats, particularly towards the tenant, about being in breach of contract. The OP had more information than either of us about the situation and the contract with the letting agent so could pick out more. As I said earlier, my experience is that most letting agents cave before it gets to the FTT. What has been your experience of holding letting agents to the code of practice? 

Just out of curiosity what experience do you have e.g. are you a lawyer who has taken on multiple cases (how many) or a landlord who has taken on an agent (how many times?

I am a landlord who has taken on letting agents 3 times using the code of practice and reached a settlement before it goes to the FTT. The whole thing is set up so that you don’t need to use a solicitor. I’d wager that’s 3 times more than anyone else posting on this thread. 

This should be quite useful for the OP then, using that route to get them to drop the fees may be the best bet.

From a legal perspective the breach of contract feels quite weak. The letting agent certainly owes a duty of care to the landlord but convincing a judge that the contract has been materially breached because the landlord doesn't know the ins and out of a landlord's insurance policy is going be quite a tall order. Not to add just breaching a contract doesn't always allow parties to simply exit the agreement, not least because there are no real damages, only theoretical.

No one needs to convince a judge of anything as it’s not a judge who would hear the case at the FTT….if it goes that far. Raising a formal complaint with the letting agent could be enough to get the letting agent to drop the £600 exit fee. 

Penny Dreadful - you seem to know what you are talking about. Is the link that follows correct to begin this process?  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2017/328/schedule/paragraph/95/made

Yes that's the legislation.  How I went about it was using the Letting Agency Code of Practice Notification Letter template from the FTT.  The link is for a Word template for you to fill in and there are accompanying guidance notes.  Go through the Code of Practice and pick out every single clause the letting agent failed to comply with e.g. did the letting agent make you aware that the fee for terminating the contract would be £600 before you went to terminate it.  Then post it off to the letting agent and await their response.

I do understand why you are annoyed as failure to tell you about the property being left unoccupied did leave you vulnerable.  I do wonder if terminating the contract is a slight overreaction or if this is just the latest in a catalogue of failures from the letting agent.  If you aren't already a member of the Scottish Landlords Association (SAL) then it could be worth joining.  I've always found them very helpful whenever I called.  It was actually SAL who talked me through my first letting agent complaint.  I've never been happier since I ditched the letting agents and started managing the properties myself.

this is the latest in a catalogue of failures - the straw that broke the camels back tbh - they take their percentage to pass the rent on, but do nothing in between

gandy666

pramsay13 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

letom said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

pramsay13 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

pramsay13 said:

Have the insurance company actually told you that the insurance is invalid? I would be strongly arguing that the property is not empty but that the person is temporarily in the hospital. What would you have done if they had told you? There's nothing practical you could do.
As for the management company I think you have overshot. If you want to terminate the contract you need to go through the process correctly so I think you will find they will win any legal action.

The OP could have got unoccupied insurance until the tenant returned to the property and as for your comment about the letting agent winning any legal action, what a lot of nonsense. Unless you’ve been through the process in Scotland of holding a letting agent to the code of practice set out by the Scottish government perhaps you should refrain from commenting on such a thread. 

Okay I'll bite. What part of the code are you suggesting they have failed to comply with? The OP has decided not telling them about hospital visit amounts to gross mismanagement and unilaterally terminated the contract. 

Like the OP you can read the code yourself and pick out the sections you think the letting agent has failed to comply with. It’s not just failing to tell the OP about the property being left unoccupied but these threats, particularly towards the tenant, about being in breach of contract. The OP had more information than either of us about the situation and the contract with the letting agent so could pick out more. As I said earlier, my experience is that most letting agents cave before it gets to the FTT. What has been your experience of holding letting agents to the code of practice? 

Just out of curiosity what experience do you have e.g. are you a lawyer who has taken on multiple cases (how many) or a landlord who has taken on an agent (how many times?

I am a landlord who has taken on letting agents 3 times using the code of practice and reached a settlement before it goes to the FTT. The whole thing is set up so that you don’t need to use a solicitor. I’d wager that’s 3 times more than anyone else posting on this thread. 

You seem to have a problem with due diligence if 3 agents you have chosen have turned out to be operating against the codes of practices. 

what utter !!!!!!. you cant tell what an agent is going to be like until you start using them. You cant trust online reviews and they promise you the moon when you sign up with them. then they try to hold you to ransom when you want to get rid of them. the industry is not regulated and it should.

_Penny_Dreadful

gandy666 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

gandy666 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

letom said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

letom said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

pramsay13 said:

_Penny_Dreadful said:

pramsay13 said:

Have the insurance company actually told you that the insurance is invalid? I would be strongly arguing that the property is not empty but that the person is temporarily in the hospital. What would you have done if they had told you? There's nothing practical you could do.
As for the management company I think you have overshot. If you want to terminate the contract you need to go through the process correctly so I think you will find they will win any legal action.

The OP could have got unoccupied insurance until the tenant returned to the property and as for your comment about the letting agent winning any legal action, what a lot of nonsense. Unless you’ve been through the process in Scotland of holding a letting agent to the code of practice set out by the Scottish government perhaps you should refrain from commenting on such a thread. 

Okay I'll bite. What part of the code are you suggesting they have failed to comply with? The OP has decided not telling them about hospital visit amounts to gross mismanagement and unilaterally terminated the contract. 

Like the OP you can read the code yourself and pick out the sections you think the letting agent has failed to comply with. It’s not just failing to tell the OP about the property being left unoccupied but these threats, particularly towards the tenant, about being in breach of contract. The OP had more information than either of us about the situation and the contract with the letting agent so could pick out more. As I said earlier, my experience is that most letting agents cave before it gets to the FTT. What has been your experience of holding letting agents to the code of practice? 

Just out of curiosity what experience do you have e.g. are you a lawyer who has taken on multiple cases (how many) or a landlord who has taken on an agent (how many times?

I am a landlord who has taken on letting agents 3 times using the code of practice and reached a settlement before it goes to the FTT. The whole thing is set up so that you don’t need to use a solicitor. I’d wager that’s 3 times more than anyone else posting on this thread. 

This should be quite useful for the OP then, using that route to get them to drop the fees may be the best bet.

From a legal perspective the breach of contract feels quite weak. The letting agent certainly owes a duty of care to the landlord but convincing a judge that the contract has been materially breached because the landlord doesn't know the ins and out of a landlord's insurance policy is going be quite a tall order. Not to add just breaching a contract doesn't always allow parties to simply exit the agreement, not least because there are no real damages, only theoretical.

No one needs to convince a judge of anything as it’s not a judge who would hear the case at the FTT….if it goes that far. Raising a formal complaint with the letting agent could be enough to get the letting agent to drop the £600 exit fee. 

Penny Dreadful - you seem to know what you are talking about. Is the link that follows correct to begin this process?  https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2017/328/schedule/paragraph/95/made

Yes that's the legislation.  How I went about it was using the Letting Agency Code of Practice Notification Letter template from the FTT.  The link is for a Word template for you to fill in and there are accompanying guidance notes.  Go through the Code of Practice and pick out every single clause the letting agent failed to comply with e.g. did the letting agent make you aware that the fee for terminating the contract would be £600 before you went to terminate it.  Then post it off to the letting agent and await their response.

I do understand why you are annoyed as failure to tell you about the property being left unoccupied did leave you vulnerable.  I do wonder if terminating the contract is a slight overreaction or if this is just the latest in a catalogue of failures from the letting agent.  If you aren't already a member of the Scottish Landlords Association (SAL) then it could be worth joining.  I've always found them very helpful whenever I called.  It was actually SAL who talked me through my first letting agent complaint.  I've never been happier since I ditched the letting agents and started managing the properties myself.

this is the latest in a catalogue of failures - the straw that broke the camels back tbh - they take their percentage to pass the rent on, but do nothing in between

Sounds familiar

gandy666

From the Citizens Advice Board: Letting agents in Scotland must comply with the Letting Agents Code of Practice, which states that letting agents must comply with all relevant legislation when carrying out their business. Please see the link below.

Letting agent code of practice - gov.scot (www.gov.scot)

 

Mishandling of insurance arrangements is a breach of the Letting Agents Code of Practice.

If you believe that the letting agent has broken the rules of the Code of Practice, you should write to your letting agent to make a complaint. All letting agents in Scotland must have a clear written complaints procedure which outlines the stages and timescales that a complain must go through.

If you are not satisfied with the response to your complaint, or you do not receive a response within a reasonable amount of time, you can take your complaint further by applying to the First-tier Tribunal for Scotland (Housing and Property Chamber). Please see the link below.

elsien

Have you asked the insurer yet whether your insurance was actually invalid? Because from what I can read you are presuming that. You may well be correct but without checking, how do you know?

user1977

elsien said:

Have you asked the insurer yet whether your insurance was actually invalid? Because from what I can read you are presuming that. You may well be correct but without checking, how do you know?

Not sure it's sensible to alarm the insurers unnecessarily with that sort of enquiry. The OP only really needs to refer to the terms of the policy.

elsien

The property is still unoccupied and likely to be so for some time. So not an unnecessary query, if they want to be sure they are covered now?