Parking Charge Notice - Queen Elizabeth Hospital - Jan 2023 - Grace Periods?

Jayd30

Hi,  

I have been reading a few threads in relation to Wise Parking who operate the car parks at  Queen Elizabeth Hospital and Lewisham by all accounts. Whilst my case is no different from others I do have a few questions (mainly due to the way in which I have responded to this company and the appeal process). 

Our PCN came through via the post dated 26/01 and related to a "Parking event" as they call it on the 24/01/2023 when my wife was visiting her father in hospital. The PCN was issued as they say that the tariff paid does not cover the parking period.

The evidence they supplied (from their ANPR) shows that my wife entered the car park at 13:52 and left the site at 15:08. I appealed the PCN (and sadly disclosed my wife was the driver  ) on the grounds that: (Appeal sent on 02/02/2023).

1. Their ANPR shows that my wife entered at 13:52pm. 
2. The PayByPhone record shows that my wife paid for 1hr parking at 14:08 - it took 15 minutes approximately to find a space get parked and make a payment, so gives them an indication of how busy the car park was. 
3. Their ANPR shows that my wife left the car park at 15:10:43 and based on the fact that it took 15 minutes to find a space when entering the car park, surely there must be some leeway for drivers exiting. Keeping in mind that we are talking a matter of not more than 3 minutes when her parking period had expired. 

Needless to say that on 03/03/2023 I received a response from Wise Parking which advised they had reviewed the case and my comments and said that the charge stood on the grounds that: 

"All signage on site states you should Pay on Exit at one of the machines on site, or pay on entry using PayByPhone - the details are on each sign. It is important for us to ensure that Parking Charge notices are only issued when they should be. As part of our quality checks we look to see if there are payments which have been made that can be allocated to vehicles where the registration may entered incorrectly. As the terms of parking say you should enter your full, correct vehicle registration number, we have checked your registration number against our records. As we know simple errors can happen we checked for record matching the beginning of your registration, the middle, and the end all separately to see if we can identify a payment which has been made which is likely yours. There are none."

I tried to call as when I made the appeal I had included a clear screenshot of the PayByPhone app which clearly showed on the 24/01 my wife had made a payment at 14:08 for 1 hour. I tried calling to discuss, but this organisation will not speak to you over the phone. I sent an email to the info@ email for wise parking again trying to argue the case that what they had stated in the appeal response was incorrect and that my wife had paid to park and informed them that I had included a screenshot of the phone app showing payment. 

Their response via email - not in a letter format: (So they could find a payment and now differently worded). 

Good morning,

 

We have investigated the below and we can see that payment was made for 1 hour. After checking for possible incorrect entries, we can see that no further payments were made, therefore the parking charge notice was correctly issued. The £40 discounted rate is available for another 14 days from the date of the appeal decline. The internal appeals process has now concluded. The appeal decline letter will have the information to appeal to the IAS if you wish to do so,

 

Kind regards

 

Appeals & Legal Department

I responded again and all I got was a messaged back sating the appeals process is now concluded So not wanting to just roll over and pay this bogus PCN, I decided to do some digging. I started looking into the IPC and their code of practice (wish I had come to this forum first  ) I found section 13 to be of particular interest as it states: 

13 Consideration and Grace Periods on Private Land

13.1 Motorists must be allowed a sufficient Consideration Period so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to enter or remain on the Private Land. If a Motorist chooses to reject the opportunity by entering or remaining on the Private Land without reading terms and conditions, they may be deemed to have accepted them immediately.
13.2 Before a Parking Charge is issued Motorists must be allowed a Grace Period save and except when 13.3 is applicable. A Grace Period is a 10 minute period at the end of a Permitted Period of Parking.
13.3 A Grace Period is not required when the Permitted Period of Parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the Motorist, in a prominent font, that no Grace Period applies on that land.  

I have now written a lengthy email of complaint to Wise Parking outlining the above. If my understanding is correct under section 13.2 a PCN should receive a grace period, I appreciate that 13.3 sates that a grace period is not required when the period of parking does not exceed 1 hour, providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the motorist in a prominent font, that no grace period applies on that land. With that in mind I returned to the car park yesterday evening and took pictures of every sign on the site and the T&Cs of parking which clearly show they are from Wise Parking - have no reference to any grace period (see attached). 

Keeping in mind that this code of practice clearly has a section with regards to grace periods and signage, I feel that we have good grounds for this PCN to be cancelled?

My questions for the forum are: 
1. Have I done the wrong thing by appealing first before complaining?
2. Have I done the wrong thing by providing info to Wise Parking that my wife was the driver of the vehicle on the day in question?
3. Are these private parking operators bound by this code of practice? Or is this just some mickey mouse "code" which they will state are just "guidelines" and do not have to follow?

*The code clearly states. 

Members of The IPC who issue parking charges within the private parking sector are required to subscribe to the IPC’s Accredited Operator Scheme (AOS) and adhere to this Code of Practice which defines the core standards necessary to ensure transparency and fairness.
.
4. Would you concur with my assessment with regards to grace periods and that in these circumstances the PCN has not been validly issued?
5. What are my next steps in terms of trying to get this PCN cancelled (if I have any). 

Apologies in advance for the long post but had to explain the circumstances. 

Thanks in advance if you read this and have any input!! 

Coupon-mad

It's currently a Mickey Mouse code IMHO, going by various accounts on here and by the words of MPs when voting through the incoming law change.  The BPA and IPC CoP are to be replaced because the system is considered self-serving and IMHO, a market failure situation.

Who appealed, you?

Or the appeal was done in your wife's name?

Stop phoning, stop replying, stop digging and trying to appeal, which is like banging your head against a brick wall.  Instead, make a formal complaint like everyone else has done, to the CEO of the NHS Trust, in writing.  They need to know what is happening and the more complaints the better.

An IPC firm should NEVER have been appointed to run Hospital Parking.  They are also a new firm, so add that to the fact there is NO APPEAL WORTH TRYING AT THE MOMENT (pre-statute) how the hell did they win the tender?  Shocking stuff.  Complain.

No paying!  This is a matter of principle.

No phone calls.  No being spooked by the £170 debt demands .

Jayd30

Coupon-mad said:

It's currently a Mickey Mouse code IMHO, going by various accounts on here and by the words of MPs when voting through the incoming law change.  The BPA and IPC CoP are to be replaced because the system is considered self-serving and IMHO, a market failure situation.

Who appealed, you?

Or the appeal was done in your wife's name?

Stop phoning, stop replying, stop digging and trying to appeal, which is like banging your head against a brick wall.  Instead, make a formal complaint like everyone else has done, to the CEO of the NHS Trust, in writing.  They need to know what is happening and the more complaints the better.

An IPC firm should NEVER have been appointed to run Hospital Parking.  They are also a new firm, so add that to the fact there is NO APPEAL WORTH TRYING AT THE MOMENT (pre-statute) how the hell did they win the tender?  Shocking stuff.  Complain.

No paying!  This is a matter of principle.

No phone calls.  No being spooked by the £170 debt demands .

Hi Coupon-mad thanks for your reply, most appreciated!! 

Yes it was me like a donut who responded and appealed as the PCN was addressed to me as the registered keeper. Stupidly I saw red and responded but probably should of took a deep breath, done some research (i.e. forums like this) before doing anything. I did  not provide my wife's name etc when I did the appeal. Just stated that it was her using the vehicle that day to visit her father who was in that hospital for a period of around two weeks. 

The whole thing is just a joke and is so infuriating that companies like this are allowed to be awarded contracts with NHS sites and operate in this manner. The appeals process is farcical from what I have read, and that's why I have not even bothered to now appeal to the IAS as from reading reviews/forums they again seem like some sort of joke service, which ultimately seems to wind up increasing the fines for motorists. Its also not a great situation that although companies like Wise Parking proudly seem to promote that they are registered with the IPC, the code of practice is not worth the paper it gets written on. 

So as you, say are the next steps a letter of complaint to the CEO of the hospital and then sit back and do nothing? Or is there anything else I should do in the interim also, or just put this to the back of my mind once the letter to the CEO has been sent?

I read the newbie section of this forum, is there any template for a letter of complaint you can point me to? Should I include photos and full circumstances to the CEO on what has happened re Wise Parking?

Any advice greatly appreciated. 

Le_Kirk

Write your complaint from the heart; it will be more convincing than a template.  You sound incensed enough to put together a strong (but polite) letter.

1505grandad

In your complaint to the hospital remind them that they are bound by:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles

Jayd30

Thanks all for your assistance, have penned a letter to the CEO and will be posting in the morning.

As an update I had a response today from (Removed by Forum Team) a director at Wise Parking in relation to my complaint. He has made no reference to my questions around section 13 of the IPC's Code Of Practice around grace periods, and I am not sure how he would expect my wife to have made a payment which covered the duration of her stay, as the first 16 minutes were spent trying to find a space to park and was registered on their ANPR leaving the car park at 15:10:43 which was 2 minutes after her parking period expired. As far as I am aware we have never been charged to find a car parking space? Surely you are only charged for the time you spend parked in a space? This is where the grace periods should apply right?

The response....

Thank you got getting in touch.

 

Your first paragraph is in relation to us looking to allocate a payment from a situation where an incorrect registration number being entered could be allocated to your case – should there have been an issue with an on-screen keyboard or similar. This is not in relation to your payment that was made correctly through PayByPhone. We are aware of this payment, and which is why when the parking charge was issued, it was issued for ‘Tariff paid does not cover time onsite’.

We do appreciate you sending the images you have, as they clearly state ‘A valid ticket must be purchased covering the duration of your stay’. As you can see from the evidence provided, the vehicle was seen arriving at 13:52 and leaving at 15:10, which was 1 hr 17 minutes later.

I am sure you can appreciate it is important that we do not issue parking charges incorrectly, so we did our due diligence and found a payment had been made to cover 1hr onsite. As the vehicle was seen in the car park for 1 hr 17 minutes, and no other payment could be found (as referenced above), a parking charge was issued.

You appealed against this parking charge using the information provided on the parking charge you received.

Your appeal was reviewed within 24 hours, and subsequently declined, as we believe the charge was correctly issued and should therefore be paid.

This is all in accordance with the IPC code of practice.

Also within the IPC code of practice is the requirement to allow you to lodge a further appeal, if you are unhappy with our decision, with the Independent Appeals Service. The details to allow you to do this were provided on the appeal response you received. You have stated you are not willing to engage with this further appeals service, as provided in line with the code of practice.

As you are unwilling to engage with the process, I am afraid there is nothing else we can do as, and to re-state, we believe the parking charge was correctly issued as there was only a payment to cover 1 hour onsite, when the vehicle was recorded onsite for 1 hr 17 minutes.

All the best,

(Removed by Forum Team)

Coupon-mad

Blah blah blah...

Wonder why they got the tender?  That is what I'd be asking the CEO of the NHS Trust.

Half_way

You can ask them for details of this independant appeals service as the one sugested by them is anything but independant

ParkingMad

https://www.lewishamandgreenwich.nhs.uk/latest-news/improvements-to-trust-car-parks-2469/

Why are the Trust allowing both payment by app, when you have to guess how long your stay will be, and payment on exit, where you enter your registration and the machine calculates how much you need to pay? Surely if they used payment on exit only, there shouldn't be any PCNs issued for underpayment?

Jayd30

At ParkingMad this is is exactly what my thought process is in relation to this PCN.

Below is my response to the director of Wise Parking. I am waiting for a further response to my questions. Paybyphone method does not make sense as he states that you have to pay for the full duration of your stay. You can't back pay I.e I spent 15 mins trying to find a space so I need to start my payment 15 mins earlier. Nowhere in their signage does it state you have to over pay if you have spent time waiting for a space. It's baffling.

Dear (Removed by Forum Team),

Thanks for making contact, I do apologise I have engaged with the process as far as I am concerned as I made an appeal to which I received an unsatisfactory response which I have then had to take time to chase up and respond on, as your organisation will not converse over the phone. Sorry but sending a non satisfactory response which is nothing more than closing the appeal and saying the parking charge stands with no further opportunity to discuss,is not in my opinion any form of fair or suitable appeal process.

As I have stated previously on several occasions now, the reason for my wife being on site longer than one hour are.

1. On entering the car park in question it took 16 minutes to find a space get parked and make a payment (payment was made at 14:08).
2. On exiting the car park my wife was a matter of 2 minutes and 43 seconds over her paid period of parking. Which if it has taken 16 minutes to get parked and pay because the parking is overcrowded and has other drivers trying to enter and exit, surely gives you some indication that it may take a few minutes to get out?

Whilst you have quoted the IPC code of practice you appear to be ignoring section 13 which I clearly provided in my previous email (see below for clarification).

Section 13 states (and quite clearly):

13 Consideration and Grace Periods on Private Land

13.1 Motorists must be allowed a sufficient Consideration Period so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to enter or remain on the Private Land. If a Motorist chooses to reject the opportunity by entering or remaining on the Private Land without reading terms and conditions, they may be deemed to have accepted them immediately.

13.2 Before a Parking Charge is issued Motorists must be allowed a Grace Period save and except when 13.3 is applicable. A Grace Period is a 10 minute period at the end of a Permitted Period of Parking.

13.3 A Grace Period is not required when the Permitted Period of Parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the Motorist, in a prominent font, that no Grace Period applies on that land.


So I can only make the assumption that the code of practice is a pick and chose code of practice which you may pick which parts you wish to, to try and enforce charges? Can you then happily confirm in writing that as an organisation you require all drives as soon as they enter one of your operated car parks that they are to make an immediate payment, and that you give no consideration periods or grace periods for any of the car parks which you operate?

I would like to point out to you that the two methods of payment at this site (as I am sure you are aware) are as follows:

1. Pay at a machine on leaving by entering your registration.
2. Pay by the PayByPhone app.

I would like to point out something which is law:

It’s illegal to hold and use a phone, sat nav, tablet, or any device that can send or receive data, while driving or riding a motorcycle.

This means you must not use a device in your hand for any reason, whether online or offline.

For example, you must not text, make calls, take photos or videos, or browse the web.

The law still applies to you if you’re:

stopped at traffic lights
queuing in traffic
supervising a learner driver
driving a car that turns off the engine when you stop moving
holding and using a device that’s offline or in flight mode

So in relation to the second method of payment at your operated car parks, can you confirm you are asking drivers to break the law by holding a phone to make a payment to use the parking facilities upon entry, even though they are actually driving around the car park to find a space?

For those motorists who wish to use the PayByPhone app they are then clearly at a disadvantage as they cannot use a mobile whist driving, run the risk of receiving a PCN because they cannot pay immediately, you offer no consideration or grace periods.

Also I wonder if you would be able to enlighten us as to how you operate the process for those who pay at your machines on exit from the car park?

If a motorist is at payment machine and is charged for a 1 hour stay at the end of their hospital visit, by the time they return to their vehicle, get set to drive and try to make their way out of the car park they would be already over their one hour period of parking, and given that I have already pointed out that this is a busy site, you are then saying that these drivers would also receive a PCN for being over the hour?

You are quite willing to quote that my wife was 1h & 17 minutes in your car park and only paid for an hour. But you have not been willing to disclose how you operate with section 13 of the IPC's code of practice in relation to consideration periods and grace periods. Whilst your signs may state that you must have a valid ticket for the duration of your stay, you are not taking into account that it is illegal to use your phone whilst driving to make a payment, and that none of your signs comply with the IPC code of practice in relation to grace periods.
I have read many an article now and the reason I decline to deal with the IAS is that from what I have read only around 4% of appeals are successful, so there really is no point.

I will be writing to the CEO of the hospital in relation to this issue and aim to take the matter further with them directly.

I look forward to your further response and answer to my questions.

Jayd30

So my question is now what do I do next? 

My email of complaint was sent to wise parking and my MP. I have written a letter to CEO of fhe hospital and sent a copy via email. My initial appeal to Wise Parking was declined due to the reasons they give in the complaint response. Do I now appeal to IAS or just do nothing now? 

I know it may not come to it but I don't wish to risk CCJ in future.