Parking Charge Notice - Queen Elizabeth Hospital - Jan 2023 - Grace Periods?

ParkingMad

I am guessing that if you pay on exit, you are charged for the time since entry, so you are charged for the time spent driving around looking for a space. 

But then what happens if there are no spaces and you drive out again? Do you have to pay to exit the car park without having parked? 

Half_way

You need to engange with the hospital, and forget about the parking company for now.

 remind them of the NHS paring principles and also do a little research on the ownership of the so called independant appeals service, and the trade assocation to which "wise" parking belong to and you should be able to discover just how independant the IAS really is for yourself

diystarter7

Jayd30 said:

So my question is now what do I do next? 

My email of complaint was sent to wise parking and my MP. I have written a letter to CEO of fhe hospital and sent a copy via email. My initial appeal to Wise Parking was declined due to the reasons they give in the complaint response. Do I now appeal to IAS or just do nothing now? 

I know it may not come to it but I don't wish to risk CCJ in future. 

Hi OP

Have your tried emailing PALS at those hospitals?
They may be able to help as the parking judging by what you said is confusing etc

Good luck

Jayd30

@ParkingMad This is going to be my next line of questioning to the director. 

For those drivers who pay by app there is no requirement to pay more if you have been driving around looking for a space how can you make a payment? You are not allowed to drive and use your phone. There is clearly then a flaw in paying by the app as what my wife did was find a space which took 16 mins then pay. She theb paid for 1 hour and was out of the car park by 15:10 two minutes after her parking time expired.

This why I have been trying to get an answer on how they apply consideration and grace periods which are documented in the IPC code of practice. If a driver who has paid at machine is given additional time to exit, why are drivers who pay by the app not afforded the same. Also, where is it stated in the signage that no grace period applies on the land, nor does it state that drivers who pay by app should over pay to cover time spent finding a parking space. 

According to their COP consideration periods and grace periods should apply but.....clearly not. 

Fruitcake

First of all, there is no risk of a CCJ as long as you follow the advice given on this forum.

In all your complaints did you mention that looking for a space is not parking? If not, do so in any and all further correspondence.

This is an old case but it still relevant, except that not a genuine pre-estimate of loss (GPEOL) is no longer a valid point. The parking period does not begin until the vehicle is parked. ANPR scameras do not record parking time, only time on site, and therefore cannot be used to determine when the contract (the parking period) begins.

Parking Prankster: Waiting for a space is not Parking. ParkingEye lose in court. Beware of snakes at Fistral Beach (parking-prankster.blogspot.com)

In Thornton v Shoe Lane, the judge determined that the parking contract begins when,  "He was committed at the very moment when he put his money into the machine. The contract was concluded at that time. It can be translated into offer and acceptance in this way: the offer is made when the proprietor of the machine holds it out as being ready to receive the money. The acceptance takes place when the customer puts his money into the slot.

In your case that means, when payment was made via the app. There was no offer made before the app was ready to accept payment, no consideration because no offer was available until the app was activated, and no acceptance made until payment was made.

Payment could not possibly have been made before the parking event began, nor was there any requirement to pay for driving around looking for a space.
Requiring someone to pay for a non parking event whilst driving around looking for a space before the vehicle was parked is an unfair contract term and breaches the Consumer Rights Act 2015 section 71.
It is also a contract term void for impossibility.

Jayd30

Thanks, I will ensure that any further correspondence I do mention this, I would of thought (maybe I should not assume things though) that these parking companies would actually know that the time they record the vehicle entered the car park, cannot dictate that that is the time the parking period commenced, else they are making the assumption that motorists are pretty much entering the car parks and immediately finding an available space. 

Jayd30

diystarter7 said:

Jayd30 said:

So my question is now what do I do next? 

My email of complaint was sent to wise parking and my MP. I have written a letter to CEO of fhe hospital and sent a copy via email. My initial appeal to Wise Parking was declined due to the reasons they give in the complaint response. Do I now appeal to IAS or just do nothing now? 

I know it may not come to it but I don't wish to risk CCJ in future. 

Hi OP

Have your tried emailing PALS at those hospitals?
They may be able to help as the parking judging by what you said is confusing etc

Good luck

Thanks @diystarter7 I have emailed a copy of my complaint to PALS already and will follow up with a call if I can tomorrow.  

Jayd30

@Fruitcake so how would you play this then? 

I have just received an email to my last questions to (Removed by Forum Team), the director at Wise Parking: He is not willing to continue discussions via email where I have cc'd in the CEO of the Hospital, my local MP and PALS etc. 

His response is below: 

Dear (Removed by Forum Team),

 

I am quite happy to discuss the finer points of running a car park with you if you wish, but not as part of a forum. If you wish to discuss with me directly, please do, you have my email address.

 

My reply to date is sufficient, and if you are not willing to take up your right and appeal to the IAS as you believe your appeal will fail, that just confirms the parking charge was correctly issued.  Any incorrectly issued charge would have its appeal approved by the IAS therefore I do urge you to take this route if you believe your appeal is valid.

 

I have responded to your points already, and have nothing to add to this forum but do welcome further private emails if you wish.

 

Best regards,

(Removed by Forum Team)

diystarter7

Jayd30 said:

diystarter7 said:

Jayd30 said:

So my question is now what do I do next? 

My email of complaint was sent to wise parking and my MP. I have written a letter to CEO of fhe hospital and sent a copy via email. My initial appeal to Wise Parking was declined due to the reasons they give in the complaint response. Do I now appeal to IAS or just do nothing now? 

I know it may not come to it but I don't wish to risk CCJ in future. 

Hi OP

Have your tried emailing PALS at those hospitals?
They may be able to help as the parking judging by what you said is confusing etc

Good luck

Thanks @diystarter7 I have emailed a copy of my complaint to PALS already and will follow up with a call if I can tomorrow.  

Hi
Great, thanks for letting me know,
Yes, do a follow-up call as well
I've had to contact them twice in the past 24 months, the first time re hopsital not getting back to me and after PALS intervention they rang me the next day and updated which I'd been chasing for weeks
The 2nd time a few months ago about parking and possibly driving around one car park stuck in traffic/etc and not getting a space and going somewhere else. Contacted PALS after the parking people just sent me a standardised email and not answer the question - PALS got me the answers I needed.

It's worth a shot and good luck and please do update if you can

Jayd30

Here is my latest response to (Removed by Forum Team) the director at wise parking: I probably should just forget emailing this guy but.....I cant resist until he maybe understands that logic tells you looking for a space is not parking and that they should be giving grace periods to exit. 

Dear (Removed by Forum Team), 

Thanks for getting back to me, before I continue I would like to state that I have written to the CEO at Queen Elizabeth and will be taking this matter further and also with the PALS team for their assistance. Your reply to date is not sufficient and you have not yet answered  my questions in relation to section 13 of the IPC Code of Practice. Nor do I accept that my unwillingness to appeal to the IAS confirms that the the parking charge was correctly issued and I will explain the reasons why below (again). 

Firstly I would like to point out that looking for a parking space is NOT parking. With that in mind let us again revisit the events that lead to Wise Parking issuing a PCN. 

1. My wife entered the Hornfair carp park at 13:52 - recorded on your ANPR camera. 

2. My wife then made a payment on the PayByPhone app recorded at 14:08 (information previously sent to you in my appeal). 

3. My wife then left the site at 15:10. 

ANPR cameras do not record parking time, only time on site, and therefore cannot be used to determine when the contract (the parking period) begins. The parking period in this case started at 14:08 when payment was made via the PayByPhone app after she had found a space and parked the vehicle, not when she entered the car park at 13:52.

So in relation to this PCN I refute the fact that she had actually entered a contract (parking period)  from the moment your ANPR recorded her entering the car park but from 14:08. I have stated many times now that the QE site is a busy site and on the day in question my wife spent the time after entering the site looking for a space to park so she could visit her father and made a payment once she had parked the vehicle. 

Her parking period expired at 15:08 and your ANPR camera recorded her leaving the site at 15:10. Under section 13 of the IPC code of practice it states:

 

13 Consideration and Grace Periods on Private Land

13.1 Motorists must be allowed a sufficient Consideration Period so they may make an informed decision as to whether or not to enter or remain on the Private Land. If a Motorist chooses to reject the opportunity by entering or remaining on the Private Land without reading terms and conditions, they may be deemed to have accepted them immediately.

13.2 Before a Parking Charge is issued Motorists must be allowed a Grace Period save and except when 13.3 is applicable. A Grace Period is a 10 minute period at the end of a Permitted Period of Parking.

13.3 A Grace Period is not required when the Permitted Period of Parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the Motorist, in a prominent font, that no Grace Period applies on that land.

Whilst your signage at this site states that a valid ticket must cover the duration of your stay, what you have failed to do is answer any of my questions on is the grace period (as mentioned in section 13 of your CoP). Your signs do not include any prominent font that grace periods do not apply on this land?

Therefore as this is not stated, section 13.2 of the CoP therefore applies which states a grace period of 10 minutes applies at the end of the parking period, which would mean that my wife would of had until 15:18 to exit the site, which she did. 

I look forward to your comments and response.