Book Keeping

OnceBitten

kaz1970 wrote: »

Thanks for that, think I will try the local newspapers. I really want to work from home though due to having 2 young kids, so the local firms not an option at the mo. But it is also a very good idea.

Reason started thread was that in order to get started with a package for getting set up with software/clients & this seems to be offering everything. But am very wary it is too good to be true!! But on the other hand I would still need to pay out for software to put people's books on so just thought maybe get everything for one price at one time. But will try to find out further if anyone has used this company & is successful.

I am pretty sure that you will find that the training company's promises ARE too good to be true, the hook being that you can work from home. Many people, especially mothers, want to work from home and these companies know that. Local firms would not be interested in employing someone without qualifications AND provable experience especially working off the premises. Book Keeping is a hard won skill and if not done properly can cost firms a lot in unnecessary tax payments. I am self-employed and do my own books but could get them done by a qualified accountant for £200 a year, why would I use anyone else?

Timmne

NVQ level 2 is AAT level 1 (foundation) etc - it's a step apart each time....

ANYWAY! Bookkeeping is something that should only be done on a working for clients basis when the bookkeeper has EXPERIENCE in bookkeeping; qualifications mean pish all without experience I'm afraid.

I'll just be blunt as it's the best way of getting the point accross properly... I am an accountant and all too often we get "bookkeepers" asking if we have any clients who need their help. On two occasions now we've met the bookkeeper and recommended them (two different ones BTW) to our clients. This ended up being excruciatingly embarrassing as although the bookkeeper thought they were qualified for the job they'd taken on, they actually weren't and ended up making a right pig's ear of it all.

Please please please, for anyone who wants to begin bookkeeping, start working as a trainee accountant in an accountancy firm first. I'm a strong believer that there's no point keeping books if you have no idea what you're keeping them for.

We have some clients that may as well have not bothered with employing a so-called bookkeeper for the year as when we get the files at the year end, they're in a right state - the bookkeeper not knowing about capitalising fixed assets, working out bad debts and prepaying things. All basic things in my view but so many bookkeeping courses do not cover it - hence my recommendation for EXPERIENCE!

I hope nobody takes my advice as offensive - it really isn't meant to be. I just wouldn't enter an industry such as finance based on a few hundred quid and some days spent revising - it's not as good/easy as it appears!

geordie_joe

OnceBitten wrote: »

I am self-employed and do my own books but could get them done by a qualified accountant for £200 a year, why would I use anyone else?

You wouldn't, but other people might. The whole economy is based on people not knowing the very best place to get the very best price/service.

Yesterday I bought a slab of lager at my local supermarket, it was reduced from £8.99 to £7.99. Today I got the local free paper delivered and a leaflet in it tells me a supermarket 100 yards further up the road is selling exactly the same thing for £6.49, and has been since Monday. I was well p*ssed off, but it happens. I made a purchased based on the knowledge I had, and it was the wrong one.

There is also the point that you may be able to hire an accountant for £200 per year, but what do you get for that? Can you contact them at any time if you have a question, or are they never available. How much time will they give you for £200 per year?

Qualification may be good, but there's something to be said for the personal touch. Someone you know you can contact directly and get a good service from.

An accountant who charges £200 must have 100 clients to make £20,00 per year, before tax & NI etc. That means there are 99 other people competing for his time, and he will spend his time on whatever makes him the most money.

geordie_joe

kimevans wrote: »

NVQ level 2 is AAT level 2 - foundation
NVQ level 3 is AAT level 3 - intermediate
NVQ level 4 is AAT level 4 - technician

I have the certificates in my file.
I passed in 2004, so not that long ago.

You passed all 3 in the same year?

What did you pass, the NVQ or the ATT?

Does it state on the certificates what they are equivalent too?

What is the level below ATT Foundation?

http://www.altoncollege.ac.uk/adulteducation/courses/accounts/aat_foundation.php

Timmne

kimevans wrote: »

NVQ level 2 is AAT level 2 - foundation
NVQ level 3 is AAT level 3 - intermediate
NVQ level 4 is AAT level 4 - technician

I have the certificates in my file.
I passed in 2004, so not that long ago.

Same here - it depends how you read it - if Foundation is level 2; what's level one?!

The first level is NVQ 2 (aka Foundation)
The second level is NVQ 3 (aka Intermediate)
The third level is NVQ 4 (aka Technician)

OnceBitten

Sorry - me again. I have just had a look at the website. They say that you will be ready to take on clients after 4 weeks from scratch. This is truly, truly unrealistic. If you think that you might make a book-keeper why not buy Teach Yourself Book Keeping (or similar) second hand for about £10 and work through it. I can assure you that most people will not get to the end of the book. If you do, then go to college and get a qualification. They are not "pish", they are the the necessary link to experience. I speak from experience, I am an Associate of the Institute of Bankers and I learnt sufficient about bad debts and prepayments etc. to enable me to do my own books and accounts successfully.

Timmne

OnceBitten wrote: »

I am self-employed and do my own books but could get them done by a qualified accountant for £200 a year, why would I use anyone else?

Seriously, if your accountant charges you £200 a year to do your books then STAY AWAY!!

My firm is only a small one (therefore low overheads) and I won't touch a client's work for <£350 a year and that's for the accounts/tax.

If your accountant charges £200 a year then I would question whether they:
a)have adequate insurance
b)are qualified
c)actually look into your figures or just report on them
d)get their relevant levels of CPD (if required)

Even the most simple client's work takes probably 10 hours in a year to administer & prepare the accounts/tax - your accountant (if any good) would not bill £20 per hour.

In accountancy you tend to get what you pay for!

Accountsman

I’m a Chartered accountant and I work for a medium sized accountancy practice. Over the years I’ve come across many bookkeepers many of whom have not been qualified. Some have done a very good job, some bad. Those bookkeepers who’ve had some sort of qualification have faired the same, some good – some bad. In practice there are very few bookkeepers (qualified or unqualified) that seem to appreciate what is actually required to construct a set of accounts and the associated tax returns.

At our firm we take on quite a few bookkeepers and trainee accountants, some of whom have the AAT or CAT qualification (ICB/IAB is almost unheard of in practice). In my experience just having a qualification does not necessarily make them any good at the job. In fact normally the ones without exams fair better because they have no preconceived notions of what’s expected – constructing a set of accounts from scratch and doing ‘T’ accounts are very different things! If a bookkeeper can do the job required to a professional standard then in my experience this would not hold them back from obtaining client – most small business owners don’t care as long as the job gets done properly and they don't get hassled too much. When it comes to unqualified accountants it’s a different matter, but then again there are some very good unqualified ones out there in the market place.

The majority of sole practitioner accountants work from home, so I don’t really see the problem of a bookkeeper working from home? In fact I’ve met very few independent bookkeepers working from an office/shop front before, why would they need too?

A set of accounts for £200!? I wonder which institute that accountant belongs to? Don’t get me wrong I do NOT work for a large firm (it’s a 3 partner firm), but our average fee is around £600 which nationally I believe to be a ball park amount. At the end of the day you get what you pay for, qualified or not!

Strapped

Couldn't agree more with what Timmne said. Doing a course in good, but you also want practical experience, even if you have to work for free to get it.

Never heard of the software they're peddling. If you want to learn a computerised package, I'd probably plump for Sage as it seems one of the most prevalent in the market (and a lot of your client base would have their own systems; these days even 1 man plumbers can use a computer ). Also, I'm not familiar with the "Book-keeping Network" they mention - I thought the industry standard was membership of the Institute of Certified Bookkeepers (ICB). So it doesn't, on the face of it, have much to recommend it for £300.

BTW, it's also a VERY competitive sector and, as it's so popular with eg mums and semi-retired people, the rates for work can be driven down pretty low.

Having said that, don't let me put you off! Just research really hard what work you could realistically secure (and as Timmne said, I'd recommend getting some practical experience under your belt before thinking of setting up on your own). HTH.

Strapped

PS I meant to add, more important than "learning accounts software" is understanding the principles behind what you do ie what a set of accounts is supposed to represent.

BTW, it is possible to be a brilliant yet completely "unqualified" (on paper) accountant - I've worked for two of the Big 4 Firms as well as in industry and they don't normally let you loose unless you sorta know what goes where