Am I responsible legally or morally for my neighbours water damage?

MikeJXE

In your last thread I advised you to seal the joint with clear silicone 10 days ago, however I can't see that much water getting through the joint but then I don't know anything about cob 

GDB2222

Slumbershade said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Och, I quite liked your original moniker for some strange reason

Could you explain what we're seeing in these photos, please? And perhaps a wider pic to show both houses?

But, in essence:

1) If the water is entering via a crack on your outside, which then travels sideways and ends up inside your neighb's property, then you are liable.

2) If the work you've had carried out on your side has caused or contributed to the water coming in to your neighbour's side, then you are liable. (Say you cut the existing old render in a neat vertical line at the boundary, re-rendered your side, but then left the new join betwixt their old and your new render unsealed, and this is where the water is coming in, then you 'could' be liable, 'cos you did it.)

3) If the water coming in to your neighb's house is due to remaining 'wear and tear' on your side, then you are liable.

4) If the water coming in is due to wear and tear on their side, then they are liable - yippee.

That's the essence, but there could be subtleties around the above. Eg, if the dodgy part is on the boundary line. Or, if your work did cause damage to theirs, but it's partly because their render was already weak, then it's a 'grey' area.

So, can you indicate which of the above scenarios you have? That should indicate who needs to sort the cause of the leak - them, you, or both.

Then you have the issue of who pays for internal damage and redecorating? Provided you weren't 'negligent' - Ie could reasonably know that what you were doing would likely cause these leaks but you still continued with the work without mitigating these risks, then it'll almost certainly be each person sorts their own internal damage.

Obviously you want to sort this out fairly and amicably, so polite, succinct conversations, delivered with a pleasant smile. State the facts, as best as you know them, but don't say stuff if you don't  absolutely know them to be correct. Eg, don't say things like, 'your leaks are coming from your side', or 'its your dodgy rendering that's causing your leaks', but instead use questions; "I've rendered up to here, so I think that must all now be watertight, so I wonder where the water could still be coming in?" Then respond to what they point out - it'll surely have to be from any remaining cracks, un-rendered areas, or any remaining gaps? In which case you then try and agree to sort these if it can be considered 'joint'. For instance, why not redo that canopy as a joint exercise as you've done the walls on your house?

Don't be concerned by spurious claims they make; "you did this, you did that, it's coming from your side, it was fine until you rendered your side!". Just answer calmly "the work was done by professionals, and the building is now in a better condition that it was before, and I can't see any place where that work has caused a leak - can you?"

They won't be able to make a claim against you unless they can (a) prove it was your work wot dun it, and (b) demonstrate that you were negligent. And I can't see any way they can do that - can you? So don't worry about that, and don't 'rise' to it. State succinct facts - in the form of Q's, so that they actually have to 'answer' and not just 'take' your points; "Hmm, I can't see how the pro job on my side has caused these leaks - can you?" "I can't see any way my builder has been careless or negligent - can you?" 

Then, 'Ok, what's the best way to sort this...?'

If they become silly, unreasonable, or belligerent, then stop talking and just stare at them until they finish. Then resume. If they carry on, you can say 'How about we discuss this later?', and you can rightly walk away. In this event, write down everything that was said, and how it turned out - if they try and launch a claim  rather than sorting this out amicably (very very foolish of them), you'll be able to demonstrate you've been amenable and reasonable.

I hope that covers everything.

Thankyou, the dody part is on the boundary line.. but also possibly wear and tear on my side a little bit.
They are already being extrmemly unreasonable and still insisting that the new work has casued the problems, even though there is 0 water ingress through the new render. 

Are they being unreasonable? If the water damage has just occurred since you removed the roof covering for six weeks and replaced the render, that’s hardly likely to be a coincidence.  Clearly not what you want to hear, though.

GDB2222

You have made it clear that you are annoyed with the neighbours, and you are worried about giving an inch, so I think that you can forget about the moral aspects. 

So, the real question is whether they will sue you. It does not matter if they are legally right or wrong, unless they are prepared to enforce their rights in court. 

ThisIsWeird

GDB2222 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

Och, I quite liked your original moniker for some strange reason

Could you explain what we're seeing in these photos, please? And perhaps a wider pic to show both houses?

But, in essence:

1) If the water is entering via a crack on your outside, which then travels sideways and ends up inside your neighb's property, then you are liable.

2) If the work you've had carried out on your side has caused or contributed to the water coming in to your neighbour's side, then you are liable. (Say you cut the existing old render in a neat vertical line at the boundary, re-rendered your side, but then left the new join betwixt their old and your new render unsealed, and this is where the water is coming in, then you 'could' be liable, 'cos you did it.)

3) If the water coming in to your neighb's house is due to remaining 'wear and tear' on your side, then you are liable.

4) If the water coming in is due to wear and tear on their side, then they are liable - yippee.

That's the essence, but there could be subtleties around the above. Eg, if the dodgy part is on the boundary line. Or, if your work did cause damage to theirs, but it's partly because their render was already weak, then it's a 'grey' area.

So, can you indicate which of the above scenarios you have? That should indicate who needs to sort the cause of the leak - them, you, or both.

Then you have the issue of who pays for internal damage and redecorating? Provided you weren't 'negligent' - Ie could reasonably know that what you were doing would likely cause these leaks but you still continued with the work without mitigating these risks, then it'll almost certainly be each person sorts their own internal damage.

Obviously you want to sort this out fairly and amicably, so polite, succinct conversations, delivered with a pleasant smile. State the facts, as best as you know them, but don't say stuff if you don't  absolutely know them to be correct. Eg, don't say things like, 'your leaks are coming from your side', or 'its your dodgy rendering that's causing your leaks', but instead use questions; "I've rendered up to here, so I think that must all now be watertight, so I wonder where the water could still be coming in?" Then respond to what they point out - it'll surely have to be from any remaining cracks, un-rendered areas, or any remaining gaps? In which case you then try and agree to sort these if it can be considered 'joint'. For instance, why not redo that canopy as a joint exercise as you've done the walls on your house?

Don't be concerned by spurious claims they make; "you did this, you did that, it's coming from your side, it was fine until you rendered your side!". Just answer calmly "the work was done by professionals, and the building is now in a better condition that it was before, and I can't see any place where that work has caused a leak - can you?"

They won't be able to make a claim against you unless they can (a) prove it was your work wot dun it, and (b) demonstrate that you were negligent. And I can't see any way they can do that - can you? So don't worry about that, and don't 'rise' to it. State succinct facts - in the form of Q's, so that they actually have to 'answer' and not just 'take' your points; "Hmm, I can't see how the pro job on my side has caused these leaks - can you?" "I can't see any way my builder has been careless or negligent - can you?" 

Then, 'Ok, what's the best way to sort this...?'

If they become silly, unreasonable, or belligerent, then stop talking and just stare at them until they finish. Then resume. If they carry on, you can say 'How about we discuss this later?', and you can rightly walk away. In this event, write down everything that was said, and how it turned out - if they try and launch a claim  rather than sorting this out amicably (very very foolish of them), you'll be able to demonstrate you've been amenable and reasonable.

I hope that covers everything.

It’s obvious that rendering up to the neighbouring render, but leaving an open joint, was going to lead to water ingress. You really need to see the photos in the previous  thread. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6418386/render-damage-responsibility-in-brand-new-work/p3h

Oops, hadn't seen you posts before I made mine, and also didn't realise it was 'this' house... :-(

GDB2222

Slumbershade said:

GDB2222 said:

You have made it clear that you are annoyed with the neighbours, and you are worried about giving an inch, so I think that you can forget about the moral aspects. 

So, the real question is whether they will sue you. It does not matter if they are legally right or wrong, unless they are prepared to enforce their rights in court. 

Thanks, well i havnt been negligent and have immediately fixed issues upon finding them so fail to see how i can be sued? 

The neighbours have already cost me thousands by delaying me. Id still consider paying the cost of the survey out of fairness though, but is it true that could legally screw me over and suggest that im assuming full responsibility for their repainting job and whatever nonsense extras I  half expect them to charge me.

You have misunderstood the legal position, in my opinion (which is pretty worthless, as I am not a lawyer).  

You had some re rendering done, and according to your original thread you said it became apparent 5 months later that water Was getting in. Assuming that you had the rendering done in the summer, it became evident that the work was defective in some way pretty much as soon as the wetter winter weather set in. You can’t disclaim responsibility for the defective work because you were not negligent, as you are also responsible for negligence on the part of your contractor. 

It is obvious that the joint between the two lots of render is defective. All the posters on the other thread, including several building professionals, said the joint needed raking out and filling with a flexible filler. Either you or your contractor should have done this months ago.

You also said that your insurance company suggested that you get a surveyor in, but you don’t want to do that. 

Really, I don’t think that you are being fair or reasonable with your neighbour. If you had done this to me, as your neighbour, I would have issued proceedings by now. 

GDB2222

Has your new renderer issued a written report stating his findings, or would he be willing to do so?You have to admit that it’s a suspicious coincidence that the damp problems emerged shortly after the render was replaced. 

Anyway, good luck. Hopefully, your neighbours will just let it go. If it does go to court, it ought to be in the small claims track, so at least you won’t have the silly situation where the legal costs are far more than the claim.  

GDB2222

If you really don't think you are liable, you shouldn't pay anything. Or, at least, you should avoid admitting liability.

On the other hand , it's probably worth spending a bit to avoid a court case. Even if you win, it's stressful, unpleasant, and a great waste of time.

Ideally, you also want to be on good terms with your neighbour, but I think that ship sailed away some time ago.

If you have good evidence that you are not liable, you really want to share that with your neighbour. Otherwise, they'll be harbouring resentment. 

GDB2222

My little anecdote:

1. Neighbour wants scaffolding on my land for 2 weeks to do some building work,  

2. I agreed. Builder blocks my side access, 'for safety', which was not agreed.

3. Builder gets tons of bricks delivered onto my driveway, blocking my access. This was, funnily enough, also not agreed,

4. 5 weeks later, I threaten to remove their scaffold and chuck the remaining bricks into the neighbour's driveway ... 

5. 6 weeks later, they actually finish.

Fool me once ...

ThisIsWeird

Slumbershade said:

I payed solely for having our party wall rebuilt, so I have 0 moral qualms now, yet this person is..
The neighbour seems unstable and is still blaming the renderers work even though I have shown that they have nothing to do with the issue. They are demanding their phone number now, I wanted to pass it over to shut them up and try to prevent the "relationship" from deteriorating further, but wont do so as I suspoect they will just review bomb their online prescence.

It's getting close to the point where I may need to block the neighbours number.

Don't block it - just don't answer it. Any texts, save them.

Your neighbour can rant and claim as much as they want. Your response is best to ignore it until they actual present evidence in support of their claims, then you can consider responding to it - if the evidence is compelling. Tell them that if you see them.

Oh, do not give them anybody else's contact details. If they want to try and track them down, that's their call. Just think - why on earth would you give them your tradeperson's details in this scenario - who is that going to please? They first need evidence for their claims. No evidence = BS.