Am I responsible legally or morally for my neighbours water damage?

CurvyHouse

Im new to insurance and perhaps been a bit gullible.

This is concerning a terraced victorian property. I had the old render ripped off exposing cob and slate before coating nearly the whole area in new lime render at the front of the house, and the joint in question is on the right of my house and to the left of hers. I didn't render the sloped bit ( door canopy?/lintel?) above my front door or the extruding plinths to the side of it and they are still presumably in cement. Work was done last summer.


In the past couple weeks both the neighbour and I have had mild water ingress along the party wall. There is a crack along most of the the joint between my old unrendered part and their render. There are now more cracks in the canopy, I'm not sure (and doubt it can proved) which cracks caused which, but water is likely coming through the boundary cracks and canopy cracks both. I incorrectly painted the sloped part of the canopy which is old render btw.

Is this just wear and tear and a joint responsibility to repair the shared crack? What about who pays for the internal water damage? I have done everything I can to repair my house when I first find any damage, the neighbour is blaming me and the renderers (which it seems have nothing to do with it as their new section is fine) and threatening to take me to court. She says her insurance wont cover it

Also a surveyor  (from a RICS free half an hour phone consultation) was mentioning that I should have got a party wall agreement which I think is nonsense?
A damp surveyor the neighbour commisioned gave no report  showing that it was my responsibility, just showed where the cracks are. Verbally he outright lied multiple times when I met them, but none of that in his report...

I am going to pay to repair the crack myself and then morally I believe that makes me even for their expenditure on their useless survey. Pretty sure legally no leg to stand on also.

Thankyou.

macman

The work is not structural, so no requirement to serve a PWN, unless other work was done.

DullGreyGuy

You did the work personally or when you say "I" you mean you paid a professional to do it?

If it was you personally, what is your experience in dealing with lime render on cob?

ThisIsWeird

CurvyHouse said:

Im new to insurance and perhaps been a bit gullible.

This is concerning a terraced victorian property. I had the old render ripped off exposing cob and slate before coating nearly the whole area in new lime render at the front of the house, and the joint in question is on the right of my house and to the left of hers. I didn't render the sloped bit ( door canopy?/lintel?) above my front door or the extruding plinths to the side of it and they are still presumably in cement. Work was done last summer.


In the past couple weeks both the neighbour and I have had mild water ingress along the party wall. There is a crack along most of the the joint between my old unrendered part and their render. There are now more cracks in the canopy, I'm not sure (and doubt it can proved) which cracks caused which, but water is likely coming through the boundary cracks and canopy cracks both. I incorrectly painted the sloped part of the canopy which is old render btw.

Did you remove the old render from the 'sloped bit'? The 'unrendered' part, was it always thus, or did you have the render removed and not redone?

Essentially, if the work you had carried out has caused or allowed these leaks, then clearly you'd be liable for them. This would also include work done to only your property, if this then allowed water to 'travel' to the neighbour's. Eg, if water seeped in through a crack on your side, but didn't come in to your house but the neighb's instead, then you'd be liable for putting it right.

But, I don't properly understand what work you've had done, where this 'join' is, which parts are still unrendered and why, where the cracks are, why there are cracks, what the sloped areas are, what these are covered with...

DE_612183

perhaps some photos would help?

GDB2222

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6418386/render-damage-responsibility-in-brand-new-work/p3

Lots of photos here. 

I think that you and your renderer are responsible for having left a small gap between the two lots of render. It should have been mastic'ed to make it waterproof. That is the point of the render, after all.

There's unlikely to be any structural damage to the neighbouring house, but interior decoration may have been damaged. 

You need to inform your insurance company, and they will deal with the neighbour’s claim. They might claim against the renderer, but they probably won’t bother. 

GDB2222

A few more points:

We don’t know if there was a long-standing problem with the render, before you had your new work done.

 If you want to remain on good terms with your neighbour you should definitely make sure you or your insurance company pay to repair any damage to their home caused by the work you had done.

Hopefully, your insurance company will agree that the neighbour’s claim against you is legally valid, and they will simply deal with it for you. You will just pay the excess.

You need to get the joint sealed ASAP.

Why is the other joint with the other neighbour not causing problems?

ThisIsWeird

Och, I quite liked your original moniker for some strange reason

Could you explain what we're seeing in these photos, please? And perhaps a wider pic to show both houses?

But, in essence:

1) If the water is entering via a crack on your outside, which then travels sideways and ends up inside your neighb's property, then you are liable.

2) If the work you've had carried out on your side has caused or contributed to the water coming in to your neighbour's side, then you are liable. (Say you cut the existing old render in a neat vertical line at the boundary, re-rendered your side, but then left the new join betwixt their old and your new render unsealed, and this is where the water is coming in, then you 'could' be liable, 'cos you did it.)

3) If the water coming in to your neighb's house is due to remaining 'wear and tear' on your side, then you are liable.

4) If the water coming in is due to wear and tear on their side, then they are liable - yippee.

That's the essence, but there could be subtleties around the above. Eg, if the dodgy part is on the boundary line. Or, if your work did cause damage to theirs, but it's partly because their render was already weak, then it's a 'grey' area.

So, can you indicate which of the above scenarios you have? That should indicate who needs to sort the cause of the leak - them, you, or both.

Then you have the issue of who pays for internal damage and redecorating? Provided you weren't 'negligent' - Ie could reasonably know that what you were doing would likely cause these leaks but you still continued with the work without mitigating these risks, then it'll almost certainly be each person sorts their own internal damage.

Obviously you want to sort this out fairly and amicably, so polite, succinct conversations, delivered with a pleasant smile. State the facts, as best as you know them, but don't say stuff if you don't  absolutely know them to be correct. Eg, don't say things like, 'your leaks are coming from your side', or 'its your dodgy rendering that's causing your leaks', but instead use questions; "I've rendered up to here, so I think that must all now be watertight, so I wonder where the water could still be coming in?" Then respond to what they point out - it'll surely have to be from any remaining cracks, un-rendered areas, or any remaining gaps? In which case you then try and agree to sort these if it can be considered 'joint'. For instance, why not redo that canopy as a joint exercise as you've done the walls on your house?

Don't be concerned by spurious claims they make; "you did this, you did that, it's coming from your side, it was fine until you rendered your side!". Just answer calmly "the work was done by professionals, and the building is now in a better condition that it was before, and I can't see any place where that work has caused a leak - can you?"

They won't be able to make a claim against you unless they can (a) prove it was your work wot dun it, and (b) demonstrate that you were negligent. And I can't see any way they can do that - can you? So don't worry about that, and don't 'rise' to it. State succinct facts - in the form of Q's, so that they actually have to 'answer' and not just 'take' your points; "Hmm, I can't see how the pro job on my side has caused these leaks - can you?" "I can't see any way my builder has been careless or negligent - can you?" 

Then, 'Ok, what's the best way to sort this...?'

If they become silly, unreasonable, or belligerent, then stop talking and just stare at them until they finish. Then resume. If they carry on, you can say 'How about we discuss this later?', and you can rightly walk away. In this event, write down everything that was said, and how it turned out - if they try and launch a claim  rather than sorting this out amicably (very very foolish of them), you'll be able to demonstrate you've been amenable and reasonable.

I hope that covers everything.

GDB2222

ThisIsWeird said:

Och, I quite liked your original moniker for some strange reason

Could you explain what we're seeing in these photos, please? And perhaps a wider pic to show both houses?

But, in essence:

1) If the water is entering via a crack on your outside, which then travels sideways and ends up inside your neighb's property, then you are liable.

2) If the work you've had carried out on your side has caused or contributed to the water coming in to your neighbour's side, then you are liable. (Say you cut the existing old render in a neat vertical line at the boundary, re-rendered your side, but then left the new join betwixt their old and your new render unsealed, and this is where the water is coming in, then you 'could' be liable, 'cos you did it.)

3) If the water coming in to your neighb's house is due to remaining 'wear and tear' on your side, then you are liable.

4) If the water coming in is due to wear and tear on their side, then they are liable - yippee.

That's the essence, but there could be subtleties around the above. Eg, if the dodgy part is on the boundary line. Or, if your work did cause damage to theirs, but it's partly because their render was already weak, then it's a 'grey' area.

So, can you indicate which of the above scenarios you have? That should indicate who needs to sort the cause of the leak - them, you, or both.

Then you have the issue of who pays for internal damage and redecorating? Provided you weren't 'negligent' - Ie could reasonably know that what you were doing would likely cause these leaks but you still continued with the work without mitigating these risks, then it'll almost certainly be each person sorts their own internal damage.

Obviously you want to sort this out fairly and amicably, so polite, succinct conversations, delivered with a pleasant smile. State the facts, as best as you know them, but don't say stuff if you don't  absolutely know them to be correct. Eg, don't say things like, 'your leaks are coming from your side', or 'its your dodgy rendering that's causing your leaks', but instead use questions; "I've rendered up to here, so I think that must all now be watertight, so I wonder where the water could still be coming in?" Then respond to what they point out - it'll surely have to be from any remaining cracks, un-rendered areas, or any remaining gaps? In which case you then try and agree to sort these if it can be considered 'joint'. For instance, why not redo that canopy as a joint exercise as you've done the walls on your house?

Don't be concerned by spurious claims they make; "you did this, you did that, it's coming from your side, it was fine until you rendered your side!". Just answer calmly "the work was done by professionals, and the building is now in a better condition that it was before, and I can't see any place where that work has caused a leak - can you?"

They won't be able to make a claim against you unless they can (a) prove it was your work wot dun it, and (b) demonstrate that you were negligent. And I can't see any way they can do that - can you? So don't worry about that, and don't 'rise' to it. State succinct facts - in the form of Q's, so that they actually have to 'answer' and not just 'take' your points; "Hmm, I can't see how the pro job on my side has caused these leaks - can you?" "I can't see any way my builder has been careless or negligent - can you?" 

Then, 'Ok, what's the best way to sort this...?'

If they become silly, unreasonable, or belligerent, then stop talking and just stare at them until they finish. Then resume. If they carry on, you can say 'How about we discuss this later?', and you can rightly walk away. In this event, write down everything that was said, and how it turned out - if they try and launch a claim  rather than sorting this out amicably (very very foolish of them), you'll be able to demonstrate you've been amenable and reasonable.

I hope that covers everything.

It’s obvious that rendering up to the neighbouring render, but leaving an open joint, was going to lead to water ingress. You really need to see the photos in the previous  thread. https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6418386/render-damage-responsibility-in-brand-new-work/p3h

GDB2222

You need a surveyor to look at it and advise you what’s going on. Have the insurance company sent their own person round to inspect it, or are they simply asking you to provide evidence?

GDB2222

Slumbershade said:

GDB2222 said:

A few more points:

We don’t know if there was a long-standing problem with the render, before you had your new work done.

 If you want to remain on good terms with your neighbour you should definitely make sure you or your insurance company pay to repair any damage to their home caused by the work you had done.

Hopefully, your insurance company will agree that the neighbour’s claim against you is legally valid, and they will simply deal with it for you. You will just pay the excess.

You need to get the joint sealed ASAP.

Why is the other joint with the other neighbour not causing problems?

if its a long standing problem with the new render then doesnt that include up to the joint which is both our responsibilities?

The neighbour seems irrational as hell and has caused me thousands of pounds of  extra costs from the !!!!!! off the roofer and rental void by delaying roof work for a month becasue they didnt want any scaffolding in their garden. then it rained for 6 weeks straight and I was left there with a naked roof and i have mold everwhere etc etc..

If I feel sorry and pay anything, I really dont trust them to not do the most expensive redecoration of their room possible and try to charge me for lots of extras.

I’m lost about the roof. Surely you didn’t start stripping the roof until you had the scaffolding in place, and you obviously didn’t put that in the neighbour’s garden without their prior consent?  Did you?!

If there was water ingress through the roof works you carried out, then you are liable. 

Someone here is in the wrong or has acted without due consideration, and you should be alive to the possibility it’s you!