Selling changed items after completion

ReadingTim

GDB2222 said:

Strictly, I’d say it’s the moment of exchanging contracts that applies, but it is obviously pretty nasty to change the rads without saying anything first.  That’s the point of the TA10 form, ie no such surprises. 

I fear this is the case, which is why a pre-exchange viewing is sometimes recommended, so that you have peace of mind that the house you're just about to buy is in the same condition as it was when you viewed it all that time ago, despite what the documentation says.  

I also fear that by exchanging and completing, the OP has effectively agreed to the change of radiators, and therefore their comeback against the vendors is going to be pretty limited.  Furthermore, even if they are technically 'right', the cost in terms of enforcing this in terms of time, money, energy etc will simply not be worth it - they might just be better getting over it and moving on with their lives in their new home.  

Obviously the OP should consult their solicitor for the definitive legal position, and the realistic likelihood of a resolution, but they may have to accept that the most likely outcome is that they're just going to have to suck it up.  Sorry if this isn't the answer they wanted to hear.  I wouldn't forward any of the previous owner's mail though.  

EssexHebridean

GDB2222 said:

ThisIsWeird said:

silvercar said:

TheJP said:

pinkshoes said:

LavenderLamb101 said:

Yes still water heated rads.

Also what about down lighters under units in kitchen?

The radiators you can absolutely claim for as if they were being changed they should have notified you. Designer radiators are part of the aesthetics of a house purchase. I would make sure you keep the sales brochure with the photos showing the original radiators.

Im not so sure if that is fully correct, unless the OP stipulated in the offer that the radiators were part of the deal then i don't see a legal issue if the sellers have replaced the designer ones with functioning rads. No different to taking a fancy light fitting and replacing it with a standard fitting.

Why not replace the front door with a cheaper version? The garage door with some plywood and the windows with some single glaze panels?

And replace the 'fitted kitchen' with an all-in-one caravan unit, screwed firmly to the wall. The 'bathroom suite' with a urinal and a bucket. The hob with a gas camping stove screwed to the worktop...

My understanding is that all fixtures - whether specifically itemised or not - would be expected to be those seen in the viewings and when the offer was placed, unless clearly indicated otherwise. 

Strictly, I’d say it’s the moment of exchanging contracts that applies, but it is obviously pretty nasty to change the rads without saying anything first.  That’s the point of the TA10 form, ie no such surprises. 

Exactly that. Now, at least, it includes things like toilet roll holders - I presume because a lot of people now have freestanding ones like we do - and also states an expectation that where light fittings are being removed, they must be replaced with a ceiling rose, flex, bulb holder and bulb. 

IMO - the issue with the radiators should at the very least have been stated on the TA10 - and probably mentioned when a offer was made also - “oh, just so you are aware, and in case it changes things at all, the vendor plans to change over the current radiators to ordinary ones”. Had the OP known ahead of time, it may not have been an issue for them at all! 

lincroft1710

I wonder how much it cost the vendor to have all the existing radiators removed and new ones bought and professionally installed?

liberty_lily

During 2014 when we were selling our last-but-one house, in which we'd fitted several expensive reproduction cast iron radiators from Holloways of Ludlow, these were detailed on the EA blurb as "gothic style cast iron radiator(s)" in the relevant rooms.

No chance of any misunderstanding....as we'd been caught out similarly when selling a previous house, although at offer stage so we were able to sort the issue before it got to the legal point in the process.

I would expect sellers to ask their chosen EA to specify "designer rad(s)" in the listing if such are to be included. 

However, we did also have some unusual wall lights (as well as ceiling lights which we explained to our buyers we were taking and that they'd be replaced with rose and flex) which we wanted to keep. We discussed this with our buyers too and assured them we'd replace with something of their choice...which we paid for and had fitted prior to exchange. 

GDB2222

khanny09 said:

pinkshoes said:

LavenderLamb101 said:

Yes still water heated rads.

Also what about down lighters under units in kitchen?

The downlighters were probably just stuck on and plugged in with the wires behind the kick board so "removable" therefore you can't really quibble over those. If they've left holes around the base and weren't just stick on ones then no they should not have removed them.

The radiators you can absolutely claim for as if they were being changed they should have notified you. Designer radiators are part of the aesthetics of a house purchase. I would make sure you keep the sales brochure with the photos showing the original radiators.

As a first port of call, It might be worth contacting the EA and let them know what has happened, and ask them to contact the vendor to let them know that you are expecting either the original radiators to be returned and the vendor paying to have them re-fitted (which will no doubt involve the boiler being drained and flushed again) or you will source the radiators and the vendor can pay for new ones to be fitted. Tell them you'd like a response within a week. 

Based on the information from the OP this is correct (although OP, your solicitor is the only one who has all the relevant facts, so you should speak to them to confirm).

The radiators are part of the heating system and are considered fixtures. The fixtures sold are the ones represented to the buyer (i.e. the ones that are shown to the buyer in the online listing and during their viewing).

As the seller changed them (especially for cheaper versions) they were obliged to inform you. While it's prudent to visit immediately before exchange, there was no obligation for you to do so - the onus was on the seller to not misrepresent, it was not on you to visit and see if they have made any misrepresentations.

Having said that, it's probably not worth the hassle to pursue it any further than a letter from your solicitor explaining the position and asking the seller to make good. Court cases can be terribly stressful and for the amount of money you've mentioned I don't think it's worth taking further.

I agree that court cases can be very stressful. I would want to be very sure that I had a sound legal basis for claiming. Only if I were sure of this would I launch proceedings. 

It would be pretty straightforward to bring a case like this as a litigant in person, and the amounts to be claimed wouldn't warrant hiring a solicitor for the claim. If the claim is between £1.5k and £3k, the court fee is £115, which is a reasonable amount to gamble on a favourable outcome from the hearing.  

EssexHebridean

Something to consider. If the argument about the fixtures and fittings actually being sold stood up, this would mean that every single solicitor out there would be demanding a new TA10 on the day of intended exchange, along with an undertaking from the seller that this form would still be an accurate representation at the time of completion. They don’t - the forms relied on are those completed at an early stage of the process - indeed if nothing has changed, perhaps not even for that particular buyer, if an earlier sale has fallen through. This is because the expectation is that those forms can be relied on. 

Ignore what is said - or not - in the EA blurb, it’s not relevant. 

GDB2222

EssexHebridean said:

Something to consider. If the argument about the fixtures and fittings actually being sold stood up, this would mean that every single solicitor out there would be demanding a new TA10 on the day of intended exchange, along with an undertaking from the seller that this form would still be an accurate representation at the time of completion. They don’t - the forms relied on are those completed at an early stage of the process - indeed if nothing has changed, perhaps not even for that particular buyer, if an earlier sale has fallen through. This is because the expectation is that those forms can be relied on. 

Ignore what is said - or not - in the EA blurb, it’s not relevant. 

I’m not sure I understand? The TA10 and TA6 forms do form part of the contract. They can be altered right up to the point of exchange, but unless there’s a change there’s no need for new ones. 

The problem in this case is that the radiators are not on the form. So, they were not specifically mentioned in the contract, and the OP's position falls back on more general concepts, such as not removing fixtures after the contract date. I see nothing to stop the seller altering the property right up to the contract date, which could include changing the rads. Indeed, if a rad sprang a leak, it would be normal to change it. 

babyblade41

Honestly if I was OP I'd have to suck it up especially if the property wasn't viewed just before exchange .

Annoying but not worth going down a legal route as it wouldn't adversely affect the price .

AskAsk

EssexHebridean said:

Something to consider. If the argument about the fixtures and fittings actually being sold stood up, this would mean that every single solicitor out there would be demanding a new TA10 on the day of intended exchange, along with an undertaking from the seller that this form would still be an accurate representation at the time of completion. They don’t - the forms relied on are those completed at an early stage of the process - indeed if nothing has changed, perhaps not even for that particular buyer, if an earlier sale has fallen through. This is because the expectation is that those forms can be relied on. 

Ignore what is said - or not - in the EA blurb, it’s not relevant. 

i don't think you can use the EA sales stuff for legal proceedings.  i have seen pictures of properties that were before they were decorated on rightmove, or in the middle of being refurbished / decorated as the photographer had gone in to take the photos early on in the process.

to take legal action, you would need tight evidence and saying you saw the radiators on rightmove and wanted those won't be strong enough evidence.  you would be able to do so if you had asked specifically during the conveyancing process whether the designer radiators were going to part of the sale as the fixtures form only states radiators are to be included, it doesn't specifically state what type.

jonnydeppiwish!

lincroft1710 said:

I wonder how much it cost the vendor to have all the existing radiators removed and new ones bought and professionally installed?

It’s not that difficult to do and definitely doesn’t need a professional plumber.