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Court defence for 5yr old UKPC/DCBL left site PCN

Hi  everyone,

The newbies FAQs, forum posts and templates have been a treasure trove so far.


PCN date: Sep 2017

Issue date: 11 Jan 2023

SAR email to UKPC's DPO: 15 Jan 2023, with V5C as ID. Auto-reply said my email was deleted without being read…

Acknowledgement of Service: 16 Jan 2023 (followed the forum MCOL guide, intend to defend all of this claim, no defence)

Claim: £320, including £160 PCN, interests, £35 court fee, £50 legal rep costs.

Particulars of the claim:

3. The PCN(s) was issued on private land owned or managed by C. The vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms on Cs signs (the Contract), thus incurring the PCN(s).

4. The driver agreed to pay within 28 days but did not. D is liable as the driver or keeper.

Despite requests, the PCN(s) is outstanding.

The Contract entitles C to damages.

AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS

1. £160 being the total of the PCN(s) and damages.

2. Interest at a rate of 8% per annum pursuant to s.69 of the County Courts Act 1984 from the date hereof at a daily rate of £0.02 until judgment or sooner payment.

3. Costs and court fees


So now I'm thinking about the defence and could do with a bit of help/guidance to adapt the template:

Case specific facts:

2. It is admitted that the Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question. The Defendant does not remember who was driving on that day.

3. The driver entered an area known as the Goldstone Retail Park on an early Saturday morning in September 2017. The entrance and exit were not gated. The entrance sign displayed "3 hour maximum stay" and in the absence of visible signage requiring the defendant to pay or display a ticket or permit, the car was left and the defendant went about his business, which included visiting the retail park stores.

 

Questions:

  1. Should I contact DCB Legal to tell them about the SAR issued to UKPC?
  2. Does fact 2 need adjusting if the Defendant was in the car, but can't remember who was driving?
  3. "The entrance and exit were not gated": is it relevant that there is a gate but it's not automatic (i.e. remains fully open during business hours)?
  4. The site does not require tickets or permits, so does fact 3 need tweaking to avoid confusion?
  5. Anything I should remove/adapt/add in the template for a "left site" PCN?


Other details which might be more relevant for later, but just in case:

1. Inadequate signage / uncertainty about the exact perimeter of "the site": Entrance sign is placed on the wrong (right hand) side of the entrance, so not obvious to most drivers who make a left turn into the car park.

One problem I'm having is that the signs inside the car park have long changed, and looking at Google Street View the 2017 signs inside the car park are totally unreadable (the font was so small I thought the signs were blank; no site maps). GSV shows that the signs were changed between Apr-17 and Apr-18, maybe as a recognition that they were inadequate. PCN was between those dates, so it's not clear which signs were up at the time.

2. Failure to mitigate loss: Parking attendant did not speak to us, but I think he took photos of us. The car park was almost empty as most shops were not yet open, so he couldn't have been particularly busy…

Thanks if you've read this far!
«134

Comments

  • KeithP
    KeithP Posts: 37,048
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    SAR email to UKPC's DPO: 15 Jan 2023, with V5C as ID. Auto-reply said my email was deleted without being read…

    Did they say why?
    Complain to the Information Commissioners Office if they refuse a second Subject Access Request.

    Issue date: 11 Jan 2023

    Acknowledgement of Service: 16 Jan 2023 (followed the forum MCOL guide, intend to defend all of this claim, no defence)

    With a Claim Issue Date of 11th January, and having filed an Acknowledgment of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Monday 13th February 2023 to file your Defence.

    That's over three weeks away. Plenty of time to produce a Defence, but please don't leave it to the last minute.
    To create a Defence, and then file a Defence by email, look at the second post in the NEWBIES thread.
    Don't miss the deadline for filing a Defence.

    Do not try and file a Defence via the MoneyClaimOnline website. Once an Acknowledgment of Service has been filed, the MCOL website should be treated as 'read only'.
  • KeithP said:

    SAR email to UKPC's DPO: 15 Jan 2023, with V5C as ID. Auto-reply said my email was deleted without being read…

    Did they say why?
    Complain to the Information Commissioners Office if they refuse a second Subject Access Request.
    Could be a technical oddity. I sent my email with delivery + read receipts. Delivery was confirmed, I then received an auto-reply confirming they will aim to respond asap, then auto-delete. Maybe their system auto-forwards to another mailbox and then deletes...
  • Fruitcake
    Fruitcake Posts: 57,929
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    In your defence para 2 you say you don't remember who was driving, yet in para 3 you state with some clarity what the driver did, and what you did.

    Be careful what the judge may ask you about your very selective memory.

    UKPC signs are always pants and the charge for not complying with the Ts and Cs is always buried in tiny font. Having images of unreadable signs is a very useful piece of evidence.


    Questions:

    1. Should I contact DCB Legal to tell them about the SAR issued to UKPC?
    2. Does fact 2 need adjusting if the Defendant was in the car, but can't remember who was driving?
    3. "The entrance and exit were not gated": is it relevant that there is a gate but it's not automatic (i.e. remains fully open during business hours)?
    4. The site does not require tickets or permits, so does fact 3 need tweaking to avoid confusion?
    5. Anything I should remove/adapt/add in the template for a "left site" PCN?
    1. Not necessary
    2. As already advised above
    3. Not relevant
    4. Yes. By saying the defendant went about their business including visiting the retail park stores suggests that  part of going about their business might have involved leaving the site.
    5. Deny that the defendant left site, and state that the site boundary was not defined by description or a map so it is impossible not only for the defendant but also the parking attendant to determine whether or not the defendant left site. The claimant has provided no proof that the defendant did leave this undefined site, and is put to strict proof that the contract is true.

    Look up "the toothbrush case" and note what the judge said about the parking operative not mitigating their loss.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
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  • Fruitcake said:
    In your defence para 2 you say you don't remember who was driving, yet in para 3 you state with some clarity what the driver did, and what you did.

    Be careful what the judge may ask you about your very selective memory.
    That's honestly the state of my memory: I was in the car with my wife, either of us could have been the driver on that day.
    4. Yes. By saying the defendant went about their business including visiting the retail park stores suggests that  part of going about their business might have involved leaving the site.
    5. Deny that the defendant left site, and state that the site boundary was not defined by description or a map so it is impossible not only for the defendant but also the parking attendant to determine whether or not the defendant left site. The claimant has provided no proof that the defendant did leave this undefined site, and is put to strict proof that the contract is true.
    If they later give evidence through SAR or hearing then won't denying it at the defence stage play against me?

    Look up "the toothbrush case" and note what the judge said about the parking operative not mitigating their loss.
    I read that. Should I incorporate this in fact 3 of the defence?
  • UKPC signs are rubbish, they were in 2017 and still are ?
    Back in 2015 their walk-about goons attempted a fraud

    UKPC will refund ALL tickets handed out by dodgy wardens who scammed motorists by changing the times on photos

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3229165/Is-PROOF-private-parking-firms-scamming-motorists-Drivers-say-timings-photos-doctored-legally-parked-cars-issued-fines.html

    To this date UKPC has no credibility and must be treated only as money scammers.

    UKPC have 30 days to respond to a SAR.  If they fail, you take no prisoners, it's straight to the ICO

    FRUITCAKE SAID  ... "Be careful what the judge may ask you about your very selective memory"

    Of course there are a few odd judges around for both parties. but with careful words you can point out "who would remember 5 plus years ago"

    Now, DCBL are currently taking on these UKPC rubbish cases and they really are rubbish.  

    DCBL claim DAMAGES ?  Damages for who, very doubtful UKPC own the site and as they are only employed as agents to manage, UKPC are not entitled to damages .... So who do you owe damages to. You need to find out who is the landowner of this site, firstly to get this UKPC rubbish cancelled and to tell them that a legal is claiming damages on their behalf and you want them as a witness to explain this.

    Of course the landowner is not claiming damages, it's just a little bonus for DCBL which the courts class as double recovery

    You can have a lot of fun with this rubbish claim and you will probably end up here

    DCB LEGAL RECORD OF PRIVATE PARKING COURT CLAIM DISCONTINUATIONS

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6377263/dcb-legal-record-of-private-parking-court-claim-discontinuations/p1

  • 1505grandad
    1505grandad Posts: 2,843
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    "The Defendant does not remember who was driving on that day."

    Perhaps amend to  -  " The Defendant does not remember who was driving on that unremarkable day over five years ago."
  • UKPC signs are rubbish, they were in 2017 and still are ?
    I believe this happened the month when they installed new signs with notices of contract to make ‘leaving the site’ a breach. So no transition period?

    You need to find out who is the landowner of this site, firstly to get this UKPC rubbish cancelled
    I'm at the defence stage so isn't it too late to get it cancelled that way?
  • NEVER TOO LATE .... cases get cancelled seconds before seeing the judge UKPC signs are rubbish, and UKPC and DCBL have to prove to a judge that the signs were suitable, not the new signs, all the signage back in 2017 Why do you think DCBL discontinue so many UKPC junk ..... judges have a spanking whip for dodgy and fake claimers... adding a fake amount and calling it damages, that's what the Judge's whip is for
  • not the new signs, all the signage back in 2017
    Oh this sounds fun then.... check these beauties:


  • Coupon-mad
    Coupon-mad Posts: 129,114
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    edited 18 January 2023 at 9:42PM
    I'd say it is too late for landowner intervention because UKPC were removed from the Goldstone Retail Park years ago, IIRC.  I don't think they are there now.

    I know the place.  Boycotted by many a BHA fan for historical reasons (it used to be our Mecca, our footie ground).  Hence the name 'Goldstone'.

    Seeeeaaagulllls!

    Easy to defend.  You'll win without a hearing.

    There's no evidence that anyone left the site, as long as you didn't appeal at the time in 2017 admitting it?

    Almost all claims here are about useless UKPC old PCNs, using DCBLegal.  You must have noticed when you read the forum before posting?

    Please read a dozen or more UKPC claim threads and the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread (the second post, about court claims).  It will help you see what to do.

    This one is easy enough - standard UKPC meritless claim and you'll know from @Umkomaas' DCBLegal thread that they - DCBLegal/UKPC  - will discontinue later on, with no hearing needed, as long as you follow our advice.

    Read a dozen DCBLegal / UKPC threads.

    You'll soon suss the pattern and how to get there.  And I'm local enough to assist you in court but you won't need it...
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