Penalty Notice for Non Attendance

elsien

T.T.D said:

Spendless said:

T.T.D said:

Spendless said:

T.T.D said:

Savvy_Sue said:

T.T.D said:

The problem I have with in this case is if both parents live together, then the fine should be to both but at £60.00 level. 

I feel it’s double dipping and outside of the scope of the spirit of the legislation.

couples living together £60.00

separated couples in a equal civil co-parenting capacity £60 each 

But fining couples living at the same address I feel is manipulating the legislation for a monetary gain. 

I think the problem with fining both halves of a separated couple is that only one half may be responsible for the absence! Dad takes children away during term time, Mum objects strenuously but is unable to prevent it, yet they're both fined! 

Ok so in the normal world scenario you’ve described mum is main parent with responsibility as child lives with her and dad want’s to take child on a term time holiday, why would mum be unable to object to a degree even prevent it? 

Similarly in another scenario Dad is primary parent and wants to take child in holiday, mum is aware but dad has dismissed concerns, what can mum do about it?  Well the answer is simple mum speaks with the school (who issues the fine) and protests to them that there is no implied consent from her about the holiday, and makes an application to family court and take the decision before a family court magistrate, if the magistrate approves of the family holiday, then at least mum has a defence so tight the LEA will not want to pursue her for her half of the fine. There are help with costs and most of the time if your in a low income it’s free.

But many people don’t think of doing this or looking up the policies of the school or working with the school to build them a bigger picture I hear you cry, well ignorance of the law is no excuse, speaking to people is no excuse it’s down to choice, do I speak to school do I speak with court do I speak with son do I speak with dad? Choosing not to is a choice. 

I don’t believe in the OP’s case that as a couple living together they should both be fined I consider it to be double dipping. 

Non resident parent might not be aware, eg if they lived a geographical distance away and only saw school aged child in some hols or were absent from their lives for other reasons. 

Oh C’mon! If a parent has them in end of term holidays they have some level of knowledge if their attending school or not. If they don’t it’s on them to get themselves caught up on it and get onto the school and find out, these days it’s as simple as downloading an app calling the school for the child’s password to gain access to this information. Just because they live some miles away doesn’t mean they don’t know, or can’t get hold of school to find out not even if you a careless cold parent who doesn’t want to know their child they equally contributed to to bring into this world doing so is an choice, it’s a choice not a defence to be ignorant of a child and their welfare (including educational welfare)

So a Non resident parent for what ever reason shouldn’t get a fine because it’s not fair is what your saying?

A non resident parent for what ever reason should have to pay CMS though right?

In law if your a responsible person for another young person either distant or non existent in their lives you still in law have a lawful duty, an obligation, a moral responsibility to that child even if you want to take responsibility for them or not, it forms part of a defence if your alienated, prevented from being in the child’s life or your responsibilities for that child has been removed through family court, but it doesn’t prevent absent parents who walk away getting away with sharing the fine and rightly so. 

It also depends on what information the LEA has on the absent parent to locate them to fine in the first place. LEA’s don’t tend to spend tax funded  money looking for details of persons related to someone who’s an absentee from school, they tend work with what they got and information relayed by the resident parent upon enrolment. 

I said I was against the double dipping of couples living together getting fined in this way, I’m not against the penalties themselves. 

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying if a NRP isn't involved in their lives or only sees them sometimes. Eg one lives in Cornwall the other in Northumberland, they see in the summer hols and maybe for a few days Xmas/Easter then how exactly are they meant to know  that the resident parent has taken them out of school for a week in June. They pretty much use the electoral roll to find people. I am aware of one case where the child's adult sibling was issued with one - no idea what happened next. *IF* you have the app described and my youngest left school in 2019 and that wasn't something available to us then, then you'd be several days in before you even suspected that child was on hol rather than just say ill. You think by a NRP saying I didn't give permission then they'll be ok, that's not necessarily the case, especially if that wasn't able to be made prior to the hol.  


I'm aware of how it works like I said I used to be on a group about it.  

The keyword in section 444(1) of the education act is as you know is “Knows”. 

Its down to the prosecuting party to prove who knew or not. Most of the evidence the LEA can bring is circumstantial in regard to who “knows” in your scenario but usually just being involved as distant parent with your child in holidays, is good enough to convince some magistrates, it’s too difficult to believe that a parent who only see their child in holidays also don’t communicate via FaceTime what’s app and other services and know much more what’s going in the family dynamics, more than that it’s just skin surface deep.

Siblings ex used to take the phones off the children so they couldn’t communicate with him while they were not with him. He wouldn’t have had a clue if they were away or not until after the event. He had to go down a major complaints route to be able to attend parents evenings as his ex refused to same room as him, and the school had a one appointment per child policy.
It’s not always as simple as you are making out.

pollypenny

BungalowBel said:

pollypenny said:

Morglin said:

Absense doesn't seem to be bothering teachers too much, if it suits them.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/teachers-strike-today-school-closures-salaries-b2273316.html

i think you'll find that teachers have been driven to strike. Furthermore, any positive result from the strike would benefit pupils:
* increased salaries to attract/keep good teachers
* better conditions, such as smaller classes. 

And I know that teachers will bust a gut to ensure that classes are up to date and syllabuses met 

I think you will find they could have negotiated that without going on strike, even though it might take a bit longer.

How much longer?  Negotiations have been going on for months already. 

maman

pollypenny 

How much longer?  Negotiations have been going on for months already. 

You could even make that years as teachers, along with other public services, have had pay frozen or below inflation rises throughout the government's austerity programme. At the same time, school budgets were cut by approximately 8%. 

Of course it's political to a point as it's the government's intransigence and neglect of state schools and colleges that's created the problem. 

With regard to term time holidays, parents should know the rules when they enrol children in a school, just as teachers do when applying for jobs.

 Striking teachers have followed the rules by achieving a sufficient turnout in ballots. They aren't able to just stay away from work for strikes or holidays or any other unauthorised reason without losing pay and/or facing disciplinary action. 

The_Unready

Martin_the_Unjust said:

The_Unready said:

Morglin said:

Absense doesn't seem to be bothering teachers too much, if it suits them.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/teachers-strike-today-school-closures-salaries-b2273316.html

And don't forget that teachers are being 'fined' as well for striking as they're not being paid.

So, that's fair all round, then. Teachers don't turn up - 'fined'. Kids don't turn up - parents fined!

I’m not entirely comfortable with suggesting that not paying someone because they are not doing the work is a ‘fine’

I’m also more than a little uncomfortable with this current round of strikes, including the teachers, as some appear to be driven more by politics than pay and working conditions.

That's why I put the word fine in inverted commas. It was the principle that there was a cost to both parties that I was trying to convey - I had hoped that was obvious to most readers, but it seems not.

And it really is irrelevant to non-teachers the reasons why they are striking. If they are willing to lose one or more days' pay because they are unhappy with one or more elements of their employment, it's certainly not for anybody else to tell them that their actions are, or are not, justified.

If you're uncomfortable with that, that's also fine. That's your viewpoint, but I would suggest that it is of little interest to a striking teacher.

powerful_Rogue

MalMonroe said:

Does anyone else feel like we're living in a police state - or at the very least heading that way?! 

What absolute nonsense this all is and it's about time it was stopped. 

No child is suddenly going to become dumb and dim because they miss a couple of weeks of school. 

What on earth is the point of fining people?

My daughter's friend home-schooled her children and they are just as bright as any other child in the country. One of them was offered a place in college last year. He didn't taken any GCSEs but is keeping up with all those in his class who did. He has a very enquiring mind and he and his brother were able to take holidays with their parents whenever was convenient for them all.

Children really don't need regimented, army-like schooling, they are learning all the time, as are we all. But we've all been brainwashed to think that children must go to school or they won't learn. It simply isn't true. 

I'd at least have a go at fighting these silly charges.

You changed your tune. In another thread you said :-

MalMonroe said:

For me, it's about priorities. Priority for me - education.

School is my priority and was also my daughter's when she was that age. She was also an A student and passed all the exams with flying colours or A grades. Next came the driving lessons.  

goater78

Problem with the strikes is that covid has meant many people now work from home. Pre covid a teacher or train strike would have been a disaster but now a lot of people just work from home that day and it doesn’t matter. As a result there isn’t really pressure on the government to come to a deal. 

Can’t see any of the strikes ending anytime soon, especially when both sides are being ridiculous, e.g the government refusing to negotiate on pay and the unions asking for ridiculous pay rises (nurses wanted 19% I think). Can’t see any middle ground being reached.