Penalty Notice for Non Attendance

Savvy_Sue

T.T.D said:

The problem I have with in this case is if both parents live together, then the fine should be to both but at £60.00 level. 

I feel it’s double dipping and outside of the scope of the spirit of the legislation.

couples living together £60.00

separated couples in a equal civil co-parenting capacity £60 each 

But fining couples living at the same address I feel is manipulating the legislation for a monetary gain. 

I think the problem with fining both halves of a separated couple is that only one half may be responsible for the absence! Dad takes children away during term time, Mum objects strenuously but is unable to prevent it, yet they're both fined! 

T.T.D

Savvy_Sue said:

T.T.D said:

The problem I have with in this case is if both parents live together, then the fine should be to both but at £60.00 level. 

I feel it’s double dipping and outside of the scope of the spirit of the legislation.

couples living together £60.00

separated couples in a equal civil co-parenting capacity £60 each 

But fining couples living at the same address I feel is manipulating the legislation for a monetary gain. 

I think the problem with fining both halves of a separated couple is that only one half may be responsible for the absence! Dad takes children away during term time, Mum objects strenuously but is unable to prevent it, yet they're both fined! 

Ok so in the normal world scenario you’ve described mum is main parent with responsibility as child lives with her and dad want’s to take child on a term time holiday, why would mum be unable to object to a degree even prevent it? 

Similarly in another scenario Dad is primary parent and wants to take child in holiday, mum is aware but dad has dismissed concerns, what can mum do about it?  Well the answer is simple mum speaks with the school (who issues the fine) and protests to them that there is no implied consent from her about the holiday, and makes an application to family court and take the decision before a family court magistrate, if the magistrate approves of the family holiday, then at least mum has a defence so tight the LEA will not want to pursue her for her half of the fine. There are help with costs and most of the time if your in a low income it’s free.

But many people don’t think of doing this or looking up the policies of the school or working with the school to build them a bigger picture I hear you cry, well ignorance of the law is no excuse, speaking to people is no excuse it’s down to choice, do I speak to school do I speak with court do I speak with son do I speak with dad? Choosing not to is a choice. 

I don’t believe in the OP’s case that as a couple living together they should both be fined I consider it to be double dipping. 

Spendless

T.T.D said:

Savvy_Sue said:

T.T.D said:

The problem I have with in this case is if both parents live together, then the fine should be to both but at £60.00 level. 

I feel it’s double dipping and outside of the scope of the spirit of the legislation.

couples living together £60.00

separated couples in a equal civil co-parenting capacity £60 each 

But fining couples living at the same address I feel is manipulating the legislation for a monetary gain. 

I think the problem with fining both halves of a separated couple is that only one half may be responsible for the absence! Dad takes children away during term time, Mum objects strenuously but is unable to prevent it, yet they're both fined! 

Ok so in the normal world scenario you’ve described mum is main parent with responsibility as child lives with her and dad want’s to take child on a term time holiday, why would mum be unable to object to a degree even prevent it? 

Similarly in another scenario Dad is primary parent and wants to take child in holiday, mum is aware but dad has dismissed concerns, what can mum do about it?  Well the answer is simple mum speaks with the school (who issues the fine) and protests to them that there is no implied consent from her about the holiday, and makes an application to family court and take the decision before a family court magistrate, if the magistrate approves of the family holiday, then at least mum has a defence so tight the LEA will not want to pursue her for her half of the fine. There are help with costs and most of the time if your in a low income it’s free.

But many people don’t think of doing this or looking up the policies of the school or working with the school to build them a bigger picture I hear you cry, well ignorance of the law is no excuse, speaking to people is no excuse it’s down to choice, do I speak to school do I speak with court do I speak with son do I speak with dad? Choosing not to is a choice. 

I don’t believe in the OP’s case that as a couple living together they should both be fined I consider it to be double dipping. 

Non resident parent might not be aware, eg if they lived a geographical distance away and only saw school aged child in some hols or were absent from their lives for other reasons. 

T.T.D

Spendless said:

T.T.D said:

Savvy_Sue said:

T.T.D said:

The problem I have with in this case is if both parents live together, then the fine should be to both but at £60.00 level. 

I feel it’s double dipping and outside of the scope of the spirit of the legislation.

couples living together £60.00

separated couples in a equal civil co-parenting capacity £60 each 

But fining couples living at the same address I feel is manipulating the legislation for a monetary gain. 

I think the problem with fining both halves of a separated couple is that only one half may be responsible for the absence! Dad takes children away during term time, Mum objects strenuously but is unable to prevent it, yet they're both fined! 

Ok so in the normal world scenario you’ve described mum is main parent with responsibility as child lives with her and dad want’s to take child on a term time holiday, why would mum be unable to object to a degree even prevent it? 

Similarly in another scenario Dad is primary parent and wants to take child in holiday, mum is aware but dad has dismissed concerns, what can mum do about it?  Well the answer is simple mum speaks with the school (who issues the fine) and protests to them that there is no implied consent from her about the holiday, and makes an application to family court and take the decision before a family court magistrate, if the magistrate approves of the family holiday, then at least mum has a defence so tight the LEA will not want to pursue her for her half of the fine. There are help with costs and most of the time if your in a low income it’s free.

But many people don’t think of doing this or looking up the policies of the school or working with the school to build them a bigger picture I hear you cry, well ignorance of the law is no excuse, speaking to people is no excuse it’s down to choice, do I speak to school do I speak with court do I speak with son do I speak with dad? Choosing not to is a choice. 

I don’t believe in the OP’s case that as a couple living together they should both be fined I consider it to be double dipping. 

Non resident parent might not be aware, eg if they lived a geographical distance away and only saw school aged child in some hols or were absent from their lives for other reasons. 

Oh C’mon! If a parent has them in end of term holidays they have some level of knowledge if their attending school or not. If they don’t it’s on them to get themselves caught up on it and get onto the school and find out, these days it’s as simple as downloading an app calling the school for the child’s password to gain access to this information. Just because they live some miles away doesn’t mean they don’t know, or can’t get hold of school to find out not even if you a careless cold parent who doesn’t want to know their child they equally contributed to to bring into this world doing so is an choice, it’s a choice not a defence to be ignorant of a child and their welfare (including educational welfare)

So a Non resident parent for what ever reason shouldn’t get a fine because it’s not fair is what your saying?

A non resident parent for what ever reason should have to pay CMS though right?

In law if your a responsible person for another young person either distant or non existent in their lives you still in law have a lawful duty, an obligation, a moral responsibility to that child even if you want to take responsibility for them or not, it forms part of a defence if your alienated, prevented from being in the child’s life or your responsibilities for that child has been removed through family court, but it doesn’t prevent absent parents who walk away getting away with sharing the fine and rightly so. 

It also depends on what information the LEA has on the absent parent to locate them to fine in the first place. LEA’s don’t tend to spend tax funded  money looking for details of persons related to someone who’s an absentee from school, they tend work with what they got and information relayed by the resident parent upon enrolment. 

I said I was against the double dipping of couples living together getting fined in this way, I’m not against the penalties themselves. 

MobileSaver

T.T.D said:

Spendless said:

T.T.D said:

Savvy_Sue said:

T.T.D said:

The problem I have with in this case is if both parents live together, then the fine should be to both but at £60.00 level. 

I feel it’s double dipping and outside of the scope of the spirit of the legislation.

couples living together £60.00

separated couples in a equal civil co-parenting capacity £60 each 

But fining couples living at the same address I feel is manipulating the legislation for a monetary gain. 

I think the problem with fining both halves of a separated couple is that only one half may be responsible for the absence! Dad takes children away during term time, Mum objects strenuously but is unable to prevent it, yet they're both fined! 

Ok so in the normal world scenario you’ve described mum is main parent with responsibility as child lives with her and dad want’s to take child on a term time holiday, why would mum be unable to object to a degree even prevent it? 

Similarly in another scenario Dad is primary parent and wants to take child in holiday, mum is aware but dad has dismissed concerns, what can mum do about it?  Well the answer is simple mum speaks with the school (who issues the fine) and protests to them that there is no implied consent from her about the holiday, and makes an application to family court and take the decision before a family court magistrate, if the magistrate approves of the family holiday, then at least mum has a defence so tight the LEA will not want to pursue her for her half of the fine. There are help with costs and most of the time if your in a low income it’s free.

But many people don’t think of doing this or looking up the policies of the school or working with the school to build them a bigger picture I hear you cry, well ignorance of the law is no excuse, speaking to people is no excuse it’s down to choice, do I speak to school do I speak with court do I speak with son do I speak with dad? Choosing not to is a choice. 

I don’t believe in the OP’s case that as a couple living together they should both be fined I consider it to be double dipping. 

Non resident parent might not be aware, eg if they lived a geographical distance away and only saw school aged child in some hols or were absent from their lives for other reasons. 

I said I was against the double dipping of couples living together getting fined in this way, I’m not against the penalties themselves. 

I agree with much of what you say but disagree with this. If both parents are complicit in taking their child out of school without good reason then both parents should rightfully be fined.

Malthusian

MobileSaver said:

I agree with much of what you say but disagree with this. If both parents are complicit in taking their child out of school without good reason then both parents should rightfully be fined.

At the root of the difference of opinion is whether the £60 is being viewed an economic cost of taking children on holiday, or a penalty for bad behaviour. Parents taking their kids out of school to go on holibobs more cheaply will view it as the former, while the state sees it as the latter. 
If it's a penalty for bad behaviour, it would be the norm for both parents to pay. If a married couple goes and fly-tips a load of rubbish you would expect them both to be fined. Suppose a lone person goes out and viciously assaults someone in a way that carries a jail term of 10 years. If the same assault was perpetrated jointly by a cohabiting couple, you wouldn't expect them to serve 5 years each because 10 each is "double-dipping".
(I don't endorse the state's view and tend more towards the truanting parents' view. The cost of a child's absence to the school and the state does not double if the child has two parents available to fine rather than one. I just find differences of perspective inherently interesting.)

Spendless

T.T.D said:

Spendless said:

T.T.D said:

Savvy_Sue said:

T.T.D said:

The problem I have with in this case is if both parents live together, then the fine should be to both but at £60.00 level. 

I feel it’s double dipping and outside of the scope of the spirit of the legislation.

couples living together £60.00

separated couples in a equal civil co-parenting capacity £60 each 

But fining couples living at the same address I feel is manipulating the legislation for a monetary gain. 

I think the problem with fining both halves of a separated couple is that only one half may be responsible for the absence! Dad takes children away during term time, Mum objects strenuously but is unable to prevent it, yet they're both fined! 

Ok so in the normal world scenario you’ve described mum is main parent with responsibility as child lives with her and dad want’s to take child on a term time holiday, why would mum be unable to object to a degree even prevent it? 

Similarly in another scenario Dad is primary parent and wants to take child in holiday, mum is aware but dad has dismissed concerns, what can mum do about it?  Well the answer is simple mum speaks with the school (who issues the fine) and protests to them that there is no implied consent from her about the holiday, and makes an application to family court and take the decision before a family court magistrate, if the magistrate approves of the family holiday, then at least mum has a defence so tight the LEA will not want to pursue her for her half of the fine. There are help with costs and most of the time if your in a low income it’s free.

But many people don’t think of doing this or looking up the policies of the school or working with the school to build them a bigger picture I hear you cry, well ignorance of the law is no excuse, speaking to people is no excuse it’s down to choice, do I speak to school do I speak with court do I speak with son do I speak with dad? Choosing not to is a choice. 

I don’t believe in the OP’s case that as a couple living together they should both be fined I consider it to be double dipping. 

Non resident parent might not be aware, eg if they lived a geographical distance away and only saw school aged child in some hols or were absent from their lives for other reasons. 

Oh C’mon! If a parent has them in end of term holidays they have some level of knowledge if their attending school or not. If they don’t it’s on them to get themselves caught up on it and get onto the school and find out, these days it’s as simple as downloading an app calling the school for the child’s password to gain access to this information. Just because they live some miles away doesn’t mean they don’t know, or can’t get hold of school to find out not even if you a careless cold parent who doesn’t want to know their child they equally contributed to to bring into this world doing so is an choice, it’s a choice not a defence to be ignorant of a child and their welfare (including educational welfare)

So a Non resident parent for what ever reason shouldn’t get a fine because it’s not fair is what your saying?

A non resident parent for what ever reason should have to pay CMS though right?

In law if your a responsible person for another young person either distant or non existent in their lives you still in law have a lawful duty, an obligation, a moral responsibility to that child even if you want to take responsibility for them or not, it forms part of a defence if your alienated, prevented from being in the child’s life or your responsibilities for that child has been removed through family court, but it doesn’t prevent absent parents who walk away getting away with sharing the fine and rightly so. 

It also depends on what information the LEA has on the absent parent to locate them to fine in the first place. LEA’s don’t tend to spend tax funded  money looking for details of persons related to someone who’s an absentee from school, they tend work with what they got and information relayed by the resident parent upon enrolment. 

I said I was against the double dipping of couples living together getting fined in this way, I’m not against the penalties themselves. 

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying if a NRP isn't involved in their lives or only sees them sometimes. Eg one lives in Cornwall the other in Northumberland, they see in the summer hols and maybe for a few days Xmas/Easter then how exactly are they meant to know  that the resident parent has taken them out of school for a week in June. They pretty much use the electoral roll to find people. I am aware of one case where the child's adult sibling was issued with one - no idea what happened next. *IF* you have the app described and my youngest left school in 2019 and that wasn't something available to us then, then you'd be several days in before you even suspected that child was on hol rather than just say ill. You think by a NRP saying I didn't give permission then they'll be ok, that's not necessarily the case, especially if that wasn't able to be made prior to the hol.  


I'm aware of how it works like I said I used to be on a group about it.  

T.T.D

Spendless said:

T.T.D said:

Spendless said:

T.T.D said:

Savvy_Sue said:

T.T.D said:

The problem I have with in this case is if both parents live together, then the fine should be to both but at £60.00 level. 

I feel it’s double dipping and outside of the scope of the spirit of the legislation.

couples living together £60.00

separated couples in a equal civil co-parenting capacity £60 each 

But fining couples living at the same address I feel is manipulating the legislation for a monetary gain. 

I think the problem with fining both halves of a separated couple is that only one half may be responsible for the absence! Dad takes children away during term time, Mum objects strenuously but is unable to prevent it, yet they're both fined! 

Ok so in the normal world scenario you’ve described mum is main parent with responsibility as child lives with her and dad want’s to take child on a term time holiday, why would mum be unable to object to a degree even prevent it? 

Similarly in another scenario Dad is primary parent and wants to take child in holiday, mum is aware but dad has dismissed concerns, what can mum do about it?  Well the answer is simple mum speaks with the school (who issues the fine) and protests to them that there is no implied consent from her about the holiday, and makes an application to family court and take the decision before a family court magistrate, if the magistrate approves of the family holiday, then at least mum has a defence so tight the LEA will not want to pursue her for her half of the fine. There are help with costs and most of the time if your in a low income it’s free.

But many people don’t think of doing this or looking up the policies of the school or working with the school to build them a bigger picture I hear you cry, well ignorance of the law is no excuse, speaking to people is no excuse it’s down to choice, do I speak to school do I speak with court do I speak with son do I speak with dad? Choosing not to is a choice. 

I don’t believe in the OP’s case that as a couple living together they should both be fined I consider it to be double dipping. 

Non resident parent might not be aware, eg if they lived a geographical distance away and only saw school aged child in some hols or were absent from their lives for other reasons. 

Oh C’mon! If a parent has them in end of term holidays they have some level of knowledge if their attending school or not. If they don’t it’s on them to get themselves caught up on it and get onto the school and find out, these days it’s as simple as downloading an app calling the school for the child’s password to gain access to this information. Just because they live some miles away doesn’t mean they don’t know, or can’t get hold of school to find out not even if you a careless cold parent who doesn’t want to know their child they equally contributed to to bring into this world doing so is an choice, it’s a choice not a defence to be ignorant of a child and their welfare (including educational welfare)

So a Non resident parent for what ever reason shouldn’t get a fine because it’s not fair is what your saying?

A non resident parent for what ever reason should have to pay CMS though right?

In law if your a responsible person for another young person either distant or non existent in their lives you still in law have a lawful duty, an obligation, a moral responsibility to that child even if you want to take responsibility for them or not, it forms part of a defence if your alienated, prevented from being in the child’s life or your responsibilities for that child has been removed through family court, but it doesn’t prevent absent parents who walk away getting away with sharing the fine and rightly so. 

It also depends on what information the LEA has on the absent parent to locate them to fine in the first place. LEA’s don’t tend to spend tax funded  money looking for details of persons related to someone who’s an absentee from school, they tend work with what they got and information relayed by the resident parent upon enrolment. 

I said I was against the double dipping of couples living together getting fined in this way, I’m not against the penalties themselves. 

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying if a NRP isn't involved in their lives or only sees them sometimes. Eg one lives in Cornwall the other in Northumberland, they see in the summer hols and maybe for a few days Xmas/Easter then how exactly are they meant to know  that the resident parent has taken them out of school for a week in June. They pretty much use the electoral roll to find people. I am aware of one case where the child's adult sibling was issued with one - no idea what happened next. *IF* you have the app described and my youngest left school in 2019 and that wasn't something available to us then, then you'd be several days in before you even suspected that child was on hol rather than just say ill. You think by a NRP saying I didn't give permission then they'll be ok, that's not necessarily the case, especially if that wasn't able to be made prior to the hol.  


I'm aware of how it works like I said I used to be on a group about it.  

The keyword in section 444(1) of the education act is as you know is “Knows”. 

Its down to the prosecuting party to prove who knew or not. Most of the evidence the LEA can bring is circumstantial in regard to who “knows” in your scenario but usually just being involved as distant parent with your child in holidays, is good enough to convince some magistrates, it’s too difficult to believe that a parent who only see their child in holidays also don’t communicate via FaceTime what’s app and other services and know much more what’s going in the family dynamics, more than that it’s just skin surface deep.

silvercar

T.T.D said:

Savvy_Sue said:

T.T.D said:

The problem I have with in this case is if both parents live together, then the fine should be to both but at £60.00 level. 

I feel it’s double dipping and outside of the scope of the spirit of the legislation.

couples living together £60.00

separated couples in a equal civil co-parenting capacity £60 each 

But fining couples living at the same address I feel is manipulating the legislation for a monetary gain. 

I think the problem with fining both halves of a separated couple is that only one half may be responsible for the absence! Dad takes children away during term time, Mum objects strenuously but is unable to prevent it, yet they're both fined! 

Similarly in another scenario Dad is primary parent and wants to take child in holiday, mum is aware but dad has dismissed concerns, what can mum do about it?  Well the answer is simple mum speaks with the school (who issues the fine) and protests to them that there is no implied consent from her about the holiday, and makes an application to family court and take the decision before a family court magistrate, if the magistrate approves of the family holiday, then at least mum has a defence so tight the LEA will not want to pursue her for her half of the fine. There are help with costs and most of the time if your in a low income it’s free.

 Going to the family court to avoid a £60 fine at the risks of causing yet more family arguments  is likely to inflame a situation between disagreeing parents. For the sake of the child, I would have thought negotiation rather than going to court would be the way forward. Taking court action for every disagreement doesn't sound a good way forward. 

Malthusian

T.T.D said:
The keyword in section 444(1) of the education act is as you know is “Knows”. 

I am not an expert but the really key words seem to be in 444(1b), i.e. the all-purpose "reasonable" clause, "It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1A) to prove that he had a reasonable justification for his failure to cause the child to attend regularly at the school".
If the parent is on the other side of the country and can prove the ex and the child kept them completely in the dark, or that they protested vociferously but the ex ignored them, that would seem a reasonable justification for their failure to a layman.
I agree that it stretches credibility that a parent who is invested enough in their child to take custody of them during holidays wouldn't be in regular electronic contact and likely to know of any upcoming major trips they were taking. 
I'm also curious as to why fining two cohabiting parents is double dipping but fining two separated parents is not in your view.

Spendless said:

I am aware of one case where the child's adult sibling was issued with one - no idea what happened next. 

Were they their sibling's legal guardian? If so I don't know why anyone would be surprised.