What's the line for diesel / petrol?

Goudy

I would consider a modern petrol car.
Yes there are pros and cons for all options, but pound for pound, buying and running, with your mileage and trips, it's could be the better option.

You'd have to buy the right one though.
Forget these downsized 1.0 turbo cars unless it's a tiny city car, they can be pretty heavy on fuel in towns and city stop start driving.

You could consider a hybrid, I know some don't like the term "self charging" but they can offer diesel like economy if driven right.
There is an expensive to them, the better full hybrid ones (not mild hybrids) do tend to cost a lot more than the plain petrol equivalent.

A similar sized hatchback with a slightly larger petrol engine might suit.
You don't need to work them as hard as the tiny 1.0 turbos.
My 1.3 Clio with a dual clutch auto will easily do high 50's at motorway speeds, even nudged 60 mpg recently on a trip to Scotland.

Then you have Mazda's clever Skyactiv engines.
They stuck with larger capacity non turbo petrol engines but engineered them to perform really ecomonically and cleanly without any extra parts and gismos.
They bucked the downsizing tend but it seems to pay off. I drove one of their SUV CX things around Spain last year and it pretty impressive. I'd hazard a guess same engine in a Mazda 2 or 3 wouldn't be too far behind your Ibiza for mpg.

Grumpy_chap

Bigwheels1111 said:

The ULEZ could be a problem for euro 6 diesels from 2025-26.
Euro 7 comes out in 2025, if they then change the rules for the ULEZ YOUR STUFFED.
I can’t find any info about it.

That is nothing more than scare-mongering.
EURO6 is the current standard up to and including 2024.  In fact up to 30th June 2025.
EURO7 starts in 2025 (if the schedule stays).
ULEZ won't be tightened so much that only EURO7 complies from 2026.  That would mean cars and vans only a year old being sent off to the scrappy.

A tightening of the rules for older petrol cars seems more likely.
Plus ever more areas being added, so the residual non-compliant vehicles have nowhere to go.

macman

Above comment is spot-on. The only possible ULEZ change in the next 5 years or so is the upgrading of the petrol car compliancy from Euro 4 to Euro 5. The oldest compliant Euro 4 cars will then be around 20 years old.
Since the average vehicle life expectancy is about 14 years, not many of those will be left.

akira181

Stubod said:

Self charging hybrid?....I get around 65mpg out of a Niro...

I really like the new Toyota Corolla hybrid but they're far far too expensive although I am keeping an eye out. Never had much experience with Kia though, I just remember my mechanic telling me they were a PITA to work on back in the early 2000s. What's your thoughts on it?

Bigwheels1111 said:

The ULEZ could be a problem for euro 6 diesels from 2025-26.
Euro 7 comes out in 2025, if they then change the rules for the ULEZ YOUR STUFFED.
I can’t find any info about it.

With new diesel/petrol cars being banned from 2035, the possibility of ULEZ switching to EURO7 is probably unlikely in the short term unless they're going for an outright ban of ICE in the city centre. By the time ULEZ goes Euro7, I imagine it'll be time for a new car.

DullGreyGuy said:

akira181 said:
The charging infrastructure just isn’t good enough yet and honestly, I don’t see it ever being good enough for city dwellers

That really depends on your usage and area.

In our borough the council has recently put a charging point on most the lamp posts. Leveraging solar on your roof or specialist EV tariffs is much harder but getting some form of charge daily is practical for reasonable commuting distances given the current level of EV vehicles... currently there are frequently spaces available and if 1 in 5 charging points are in use I'd be surprised

Certainly not an expert of petrol -v- diesel but very surprised your mileage is close to justifying diesel. Its going back a while but those with diesel were typically doing 5+ times the mileage  

Lamppost charging only works if there are a small number of EVs in the area. My street for example has one lamp post on either side every 150m-200m. Assuming you can get your EV parked remotely close, you're going to have a cable trailing to your car. Many EV's in the area, many cables. Not long before lawsuits are getting thrown around for trip hazards on public walkways, particularly in the city.

Only time I'd have more than 30 minutes to get a charge would be on my lunch break. The supermarket near my work has 4 stations but they're always full, probably with other EV owners that cannot charge at home. Until a charge point is available at every parking spot, done wirelessly, or completed in under 5 minutes, a full transition to EV for city dwellers is nothing but an unrealistic pipe dream IMO.

Goudy said:

I would consider a modern petrol car.
Yes there are pros and cons for all options, but pound for pound, buying and running, with your mileage and trips, it's could be the better option.

You'd have to buy the right one though.
Forget these downsized 1.0 turbo cars unless it's a tiny city car, they can be pretty heavy on fuel in towns and city stop start driving.

A similar sized hatchback with a slightly larger petrol engine might suit.
You don't need to work them as hard as the tiny 1.0 turbos.
My 1.3 Clio with a dual clutch auto will easily do high 50's at motorway speeds, even nudged 60 mpg recently on a trip to Scotland.

I don't get why people say you need to do X thousand miles a year to make diesel worth it for a second hand car. Purchase price of second hand car between diesel/petrol is comparable so you have all the MPG benefits for a comparable purchase price. Diesel is also a lubricant and revs lower so a higher mileage diesel engine will, in theory, have less wear and tear than a petrol engine of similar mileage. Motorway/city driving and regular commute length are the things to consider if I understand what I'm reading.

Although, with petrol cars reaching 50's mpg, sounds like it might be worth considering. Would give me a bigger pool of cars to choose from, the 1.4/1.5 tsi's from VAG seem like a good balance of power vs economy

Stubod

akira181 said:

Stubod said:

Self charging hybrid?....I get around 65mpg out of a Niro...

I really like the new Toyota Corolla hybrid but they're far far too expensive although I am keeping an eye out. Never had much experience with Kia though, I just remember my mechanic telling me they were a PITA to work on back in the early 2000s. What's your thoughts on it?

Long story short, I had a Yeti which I loved, but it was time to change and I really wanted something that was automatic.

Looked and test drove lots of "small" SUV's, Mazda, VW, Suzuki and a Toyota Yaris Cross which I would have got had it not been for a 9 month wait.

For some reason I ahd not even considered KIA but they popped onto my radar as I was keen to change the Yeti.

Had a test drive in a Niro and it seemed to tick all the boxes for me and I would now only buy a car that was petrol / hybrid, auto gearbox, had adaptive cruise control and a rear camera.

As an added bonus, as well as averaging 65+mpg (actual to date), the Kia comes with a 7 year warranty, and cost wise it was equal / less than most of the other cars I test drove, (it was one of the last of the "old" models".

As and when I come to replace it, (hopefully not for a while), another Kia will (probably) be at the top of my list.

JKenH

akira181 said:

A quick cost per mile calculation and it's roughly £0.13/mile at 60mpg (£1.75/L diesel) and 49mpg (£1.45 petrol). Having only driven diesels for the last 10 years, does/can a modern petrol car regularly achieve 49mpg with normal motorway driving (not heavy footed and not hyper-miling)?

I bought a 2020 VW Golf 1.0 turbo petrol 2 months ago. I have driven 1234, mainly motorway, miles at a true 70mph where possible, plus some short local trips, and averaged an indicated 50.9mpg which equates to a true 48.8 mpg (based on filling up after a 486 mile drive at the same petrol pump as before and calculating the mpg from the miles/litres used. 

CoastingHatbox

akira181 said:

I don't get why people say you need to do X thousand miles a year to make diesel worth it for a second hand car. Purchase price of second hand car between diesel/petrol is comparable so you have all the MPG benefits for a comparable purchase price. Diesel is also a lubricant and revs lower so a higher mileage diesel engine will, in theory, have less wear and tear than a petrol engine of similar mileage. Motorway/city driving and regular commute length are the things to consider if I understand what I'm reading.

I think its more down to the mix of driving too, the main issue being that a diesel used the majority of the time for shorter trips and urban driving will cost more to maintain on the account of particular filter blocking.

akira181

JKenH said:

akira181 said:

A quick cost per mile calculation and it's roughly £0.13/mile at 60mpg (£1.75/L diesel) and 49mpg (£1.45 petrol). Having only driven diesels for the last 10 years, does/can a modern petrol car regularly achieve 49mpg with normal motorway driving (not heavy footed and not hyper-miling)?

I bought a 2020 VW Golf 1.0 turbo petrol 2 months ago. I have driven 1234, mainly motorway, miles at a true 70mph where possible, plus some short local trips, and averaged an indicated 50.9mpg which equates to a true 48.8 mpg (based on filling up after a 486 mile drive at the same petrol pump as before and calculating the mpg from the miles/litres used. 

Based on the amount I fill up vs the mileage on my odometer, a mix of city and motorway at 60 to 80mph typically works out around the 55mpg mark. The trip computer (no idea the accuracy of that) estimates my single trip MPGs are from low 30s (city) to low 70s (motorway at 60mph).

If I can find a petrol that'll do 50mpg and not be slower than my current 1.6 diesel, that'll be ideal. Hopefully the second hand car market calms down somewhat this year too!

Goudy

CoastingHatbox said:

akira181 said:

I don't get why people say you need to do X thousand miles a year to make diesel worth it for a second hand car. Purchase price of second hand car between diesel/petrol is comparable so you have all the MPG benefits for a comparable purchase price. Diesel is also a lubricant and revs lower so a higher mileage diesel engine will, in theory, have less wear and tear than a petrol engine of similar mileage. Motorway/city driving and regular commute length are the things to consider if I understand what I'm reading.

I think its more down to the mix of driving too, the main issue being that a diesel used the majority of the time for shorter trips and urban driving will cost more to maintain on the account of particular filter blocking.

Modern diesels tend to be more expensive to repair full stop.

The fuel system is rather complicated and expensive when it needs attention compared to a petrol engine.
Just compare the price of a diesel injector to a petrol one, or a diesel pump to a petrol one.
It also usually takes a specialist to diagnose and repair it.

They tend to be fitted with more emission control devices, DPF, EGR and SCR, all are which active and need controlling.
Even if your DPF works perfectly, it is designed to turn soot into ash and will eventually fill with ash . It turns larger particles of soot into small particles of ash and traps them.
A petrol uses a Cat and perhaps some models use a particle filter similar to a DPF, but both will work passively just from the heat of the exhaust, so there's no other parts controlling them.

They tend to be fitted with dual mass flywheels which don't last as long as a single mass flywheel and often double the price of a replacement clutch.

There are also many other parts on a diesel engine that a petrol just doesn't have.
Diesels don't produce a inlet vacuum, so need a way of generating a vacuum for the brake booster, which means another part, usually a vacuum pump to do that.

OK, you might say diesels don't need an ignition system, but they do need a preheat system.

It has been reported diesels are 3 times more likely to breakdown and on average cost 20% more to repair.

Now that some modern petrol and petrol/hybrids are getting close to diesel mpg returns and petrol is cheaper at the pump by around 24p per litre (at the moment and doesn't look like it'll ever close in price) the benefits of a diesel aren't as big as you might preceive, even doing highish mileages.

As for a diesel engine lasting longer than a petrol, most cars that rack up record mileages tend to be petrol.
In fact, Hybrids can do some mega mileages with easy as their engines tyically run an Atkinson cycle and are never really stressed.
Your mini cabbers just aren't using diesels any more, they are using Prius and the likes for good reason.

Ditzy_Mitzy

macman said:

Above comment is spot-on. The only possible ULEZ change in the next 5 years or so is the upgrading of the petrol car compliancy from Euro 4 to Euro 5. The oldest compliant Euro 4 cars will then be around 20 years old.
Since the average vehicle life expectancy is about 14 years, not many of those will be left.

I can't see any point in doing that.  The Euro 4 and 5 emissions standards for petrol cars are virtually identical, bar a slight cut in the NOX limit.