Faulty Hotpoint cooker

powerful_Rogue

HillStreetBlues said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is the fault? Within the first 30 days, the onus is on you to prove it's faulty.

Did you pay Appliances Direct for the connection or did you get someone in to connect it up?

Is Which wrong? https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

The first six months

If the fault developed within first six months of you owning the product and you’re looking for a repair or replacement, it’s down to the retailer to check the fault in order to demonstrate the product wasn’t faulty when you received it


To me that reads the onus is on the retailer to prove it's not faulty, not the customer that it is.

That's talking about the period from 30 days to 6 months. You're looking at the right to reject within 30 days because it's faulty. In such case the onus is to prove the item is actually faulty. So if Appliance Direct send someone round and they can't find a fault, you can't reject it under this part of the legislation.

HillStreetBlues

powerful_Rogue said:

HillStreetBlues said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is the fault? Within the first 30 days, the onus is on you to prove it's faulty.

Did you pay Appliances Direct for the connection or did you get someone in to connect it up?

Is Which wrong? https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

The first six months

If the fault developed within first six months of you owning the product and you’re looking for a repair or replacement, it’s down to the retailer to check the fault in order to demonstrate the product wasn’t faulty when you received it


To me that reads the onus is on the retailer to prove it's not faulty, not the customer that it is.

That's talking about the period from 30 days to 6 months. You're looking at the right to reject within 30 days because it's faulty. In such case the onus is to prove the item is actually faulty. So if Appliance Direct send someone round and they can't find a fault, you can't reject it under this part of the legislation.

So although it clearly starts "The first six month" (twice)  they don't actually mean it

So with your view,  for the first 30 days the onus is on the customer to prove a fault, then after 30 days it switches to the onus is on the retailer, then after 6 months it switches back to the customer!

powerful_Rogue

HillStreetBlues said:

powerful_Rogue said:

HillStreetBlues said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is the fault? Within the first 30 days, the onus is on you to prove it's faulty.

Did you pay Appliances Direct for the connection or did you get someone in to connect it up?

Is Which wrong? https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

The first six months

If the fault developed within first six months of you owning the product and you’re looking for a repair or replacement, it’s down to the retailer to check the fault in order to demonstrate the product wasn’t faulty when you received it


To me that reads the onus is on the retailer to prove it's not faulty, not the customer that it is.

That's talking about the period from 30 days to 6 months. You're looking at the right to reject within 30 days because it's faulty. In such case the onus is to prove the item is actually faulty. So if Appliance Direct send someone round and they can't find a fault, you can't reject it under this part of the legislation.

So although it clearly starts "The first six month" (twice)  they don't actually mean it

So with your view,  for the first 30 days the onus is on the customer to prove a fault, then after 30 days it switches to the onus is on the retailer, then after 6 months it switches back to the customer!

Correct.

MikeJXE

Much depends on the retailer.

I bought a microwave last May, reserved online and collected from Argos

It stopped working Monday after 8 months, took it back to Argos Tuesday 

Walked away with a new one, same manufacturer but I could have chosen any at any price. 

HillStreetBlues

powerful_Rogue said:

HillStreetBlues said:

powerful_Rogue said:

HillStreetBlues said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is the fault? Within the first 30 days, the onus is on you to prove it's faulty.

Did you pay Appliances Direct for the connection or did you get someone in to connect it up?

Is Which wrong? https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

The first six months

If the fault developed within first six months of you owning the product and you’re looking for a repair or replacement, it’s down to the retailer to check the fault in order to demonstrate the product wasn’t faulty when you received it


To me that reads the onus is on the retailer to prove it's not faulty, not the customer that it is.

That's talking about the period from 30 days to 6 months. You're looking at the right to reject within 30 days because it's faulty. In such case the onus is to prove the item is actually faulty. So if Appliance Direct send someone round and they can't find a fault, you can't reject it under this part of the legislation.

So although it clearly starts "The first six month" (twice)  they don't actually mean it

So with your view,  for the first 30 days the onus is on the customer to prove a fault, then after 30 days it switches to the onus is on the retailer, then after 6 months it switches back to the customer!

Correct.

You know that would mean  you could buy  a new kettle, get home plug in it find it doesn't work,  return it to store and then they say "sorry we can't test it as not qualified to need to have it tested by a qualified electrician to prove it doesn't work.

MarvinDay

HillStreetBlues said:

powerful_Rogue said:

HillStreetBlues said:

powerful_Rogue said:

What is the fault? Within the first 30 days, the onus is on you to prove it's faulty.

Did you pay Appliances Direct for the connection or did you get someone in to connect it up?

Is Which wrong? https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

The first six months

If the fault developed within first six months of you owning the product and you’re looking for a repair or replacement, it’s down to the retailer to check the fault in order to demonstrate the product wasn’t faulty when you received it


To me that reads the onus is on the retailer to prove it's not faulty, not the customer that it is.

That's talking about the period from 30 days to 6 months. You're looking at the right to reject within 30 days because it's faulty. In such case the onus is to prove the item is actually faulty. So if Appliance Direct send someone round and they can't find a fault, you can't reject it under this part of the legislation.

So although it clearly starts "The first six month" (twice)  they don't actually mean it

So with your view,  for the first 30 days the onus is on the customer to prove a fault, then after 30 days it switches to the onus is on the retailer, then after 6 months it switches back to the customer!

It depends on the resolution that the consumer is requiring.
If you opt for a repair or replacement then the law (Consumer rights act) states if goods that are faulty within the first 6 months then it is assumed they were faulty from new unless the retailer can prove otherwise. This applies at any time up to 6 months.

However, if the consumer wants to reject the goods for a full refund within the first 30 days, the onus is on them to show that the fault (or the cause of the fault) was present when they took possession of those goods.
At the end of this 30 day period up to the end of 6 months, it is again assumed that the goods were faulty from new unless the retailer can show otherwise.

As I stated, it's in the CRA but it's easier to refer to the guidance notes for this legislation.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/4

97.Subsections (14) and (15) provide that, if a breach of the statutory rights – for example a fault - arises in the first 6 months from delivery, it is presumed to have been present at the time of delivery unless the trader proves otherwise or this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the particular breach or fault. This applies where the consumer exercises their right to a repair or replacement or their right to a price reduction or the final right to reject. This does not apply where the consumer exercises the short-term right to reject. These subsections correspond to section 48A(3) and (4) of the SGA and section 11M(3) and (4) of the SGSA.

HillStreetBlues

MarvinDay said:

It depends on the resolution that the consumer is requiring.
If you opt for a repair or replacement then the law (Consumer rights act) states if goods that are faulty within the first 6 months then it is assumed they were faulty from new unless the retailer can prove otherwise. This applies at any time up to 6 months.

However, if the consumer wants to reject the goods for a full refund within the first 30 days, the onus is on them to show that the fault (or the cause of the fault) was present when they took possession of those goods.
At the end of this 30 day period up to the end of 6 months, it is again assumed that the goods were faulty from new unless the retailer can show otherwise.

As I stated, it's in the CRA but it's easier to refer to the guidance notes for this legislation.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/4

97.Subsections (14) and (15) provide that, if a breach of the statutory rights – for example a fault - arises in the first 6 months from delivery, it is presumed to have been present at the time of delivery unless the trader proves otherwise or this presumption is incompatible with the nature of the goods or the particular breach or fault. This applies where the consumer exercises their right to a repair or replacement or their right to a price reduction or the final right to reject. This does not apply where the consumer exercises the short-term right to reject. These subsections correspond to section 48A(3) and (4) of the SGA and section 11M(3) and (4) of the SGSA.

That whole passage does not apply because there are other rules covering the right to reject in the first 30 day, that is covered  with te passages below.

 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/1/chapter/2/crossheading/what-remedies-are-there-if-statutory-rights-under-a-goods-contract-are-not-met


22Time limit for short-term right to reject

(1)A consumer who has the short-term right to reject loses it if the time limit for exercising it passes without the consumer exercising it, unless the trader and the consumer agree that it may be exercised later.

(2)An agreement under which the short-term right to reject would be lost before the time limit passes is not binding on the consumer.

(3)The time limit for exercising the short-term right to reject (unless subsection (4) applies) is the end of 30 days beginning with the first day after these have all happened—

(a)ownership or (in the case of a contract for the hire of goods, a hire-purchase agreement or a conditional sales contract) possession of the goods has been transferred to the consumer,

(b)the goods have been delivered, and

(c)where the contract requires the trader to install the goods or take other action to enable the consumer to use them, the trader has notified the consumer that the action has been taken.

(4)If any of the goods are of a kind that can reasonably be expected to perish after a shorter period, the time limit for exercising the short-term right to reject in relation to those goods is the end of that shorter period (but without affecting the time limit in relation to goods that are not of that kind).

(5)Subsections (3) and (4) do not prevent the consumer exercising the short-term right to reject before something mentioned in subsection (3)(a), (b) or (c) has happened.

(6)If the consumer requests or agrees to the repair or replacement of goods, the period mentioned in subsection (3) or (4) stops running for the length of the waiting period.

(7)If goods supplied by the trader in response to that request or agreement do not conform to the contract, the time limit for exercising the short-term right to reject is then either—

(a)7 days after the waiting period ends, or

(b)if later, the original time limit for exercising that right, extended by the waiting period.

(8)The waiting period—

(a)begins with the day the consumer requests or agrees to the repair or replacement of the goods, and

(b)ends with the day on which the consumer receives goods supplied by the trader in response to the request or agreement.




I can not see ( I could have missed it so happy to be pointed out)   anywhere that to excise the right  that the consumer  must provide prove off fault.

MarvinDay

HillStreetBlues said

That whole passage does not apply because there are other rules covering the right to reject in the first 30 day, that is covered  with te passages below.

 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/1/chapter/2/crossheading/what-remedies-are-there-if-statutory-rights-under-a-goods-contract-are-not-met


22Time limit for short-term right to reject

(1)A consumer who has the short-term right to reject loses it if the time limit for exercising it passes without the consumer exercising it, unless the trader and the consumer agree that it may be exercised later.

(2)An agreement under which the short-term right to reject would be lost before the time limit passes is not binding on the consumer.

(3)The time limit for exercising the short-term right to reject (unless subsection (4) applies) is the end of 30 days beginning with the first day after these have all happened—

(a)ownership or (in the case of a contract for the hire of goods, a hire-purchase agreement or a conditional sales contract) possession of the goods has been transferred to the consumer,

(b)the goods have been delivered, and

(c)where the contract requires the trader to install the goods or take other action to enable the consumer to use them, the trader has notified the consumer that the action has been taken.

(4)If any of the goods are of a kind that can reasonably be expected to perish after a shorter period, the time limit for exercising the short-term right to reject in relation to those goods is the end of that shorter period (but without affecting the time limit in relation to goods that are not of that kind).

(5)Subsections (3) and (4) do not prevent the consumer exercising the short-term right to reject before something mentioned in subsection (3)(a), (b) or (c) has happened.

(6)If the consumer requests or agrees to the repair or replacement of goods, the period mentioned in subsection (3) or (4) stops running for the length of the waiting period.

(7)If goods supplied by the trader in response to that request or agreement do not conform to the contract, the time limit for exercising the short-term right to reject is then either—

(a)7 days after the waiting period ends, or

(b)if later, the original time limit for exercising that right, extended by the waiting period.

(8)The waiting period—

(a)begins with the day the consumer requests or agrees to the repair or replacement of the goods, and

(b)ends with the day on which the consumer receives goods supplied by the trader in response to the request or agreement.




I can not see ( I could have missed it so happy to be pointed out)   anywhere that to excise the right  that the consumer  must provide prove off fault.

It's stated in the link that you provided:

(14)For the purposes of subsections (3)(b) and (c) and (4), goods which do not conform to the contract at any time within the period of six months beginning with the day on which the goods were delivered to the consumer must be taken not to have conformed to it on that day.

which clearly states that faulty goods within the first 6 months are assumed to have been faulty on the day of delivery for the purposes of 3b and 3c. and not for 3(a).

What are 3(a), 3(b) and 3(c)?

(3)If the goods do not conform to the contract because of a breach of any of the terms described in sections 9, 10, 11, 13 and 14, or if they do not conform to the contract under section 16, the consumer's rights (and the provisions about them and when they are available) are—

(a)the short-term right to reject (sections 20 and 22);

(b)the right to repair or replacement (section 23); and

(c)the right to a price reduction or the final right to reject (sections 20 and 24).

So as you can see, the 6 month onus of proof falling on the retailer does not apply for the purposes of 3(a) which is the 30 day right of rejection for a full refund.

HillStreetBlues

MarvinDay said:

So as you can see, the 6 month onus of proof falling on the retailer does not apply for the purposes of 3(a) which is the 30 day right of rejection for a full refund.

Yes I agree with that, but nowhere does it say the customer has to in the first 30 days.
It would have to be spelled out in the relevant passage.
E.G. "The onus is on the customer to prove fault in first 30 days"

The fact that it doesn't the customer can not be stopped from activating that clause 

powerful_Rogue

TheBusinessCompanion is a great tool for traders, as it explains in plain English what the legislation entails. In regards to this it states:

Q. A trader cannot ascertain whether an item is faulty or whether it has failed due to misuse. What should they do?

A. If a consumer wishes to exercise the short-term right to reject the goods, it is for them to prove that the fault is not due to misuse. If a consumer claims a repair or replacement (or, if these fail, a price reduction or rejection) within six months of delivery, it is for the trader to prove misuse. After six months, the onus falls back on to the consumer. In any case, if the trader cannot agree on the cause of the fault, the trader may wish to obtain a second opinion - for example, from the manufacturer or an independent expert. Where an independent expert is to be used the consumer and trader should ideally both agree to this in writing.

https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/goods/sale-and-supply-of-goods