Buying new car in cash

motorguy

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

It's probably like with any top-end product, buyers generally don't buy because it's a great product worth the high price. They buy because they want to be seen as a cut above the rest, having not only the wealth to be able to afford the product but also be "on the list", have status with suppliers of the top-end product/service. The product loses its snob value if too many people have them, or they're too easy to get hold of. So they not only have a price barrier that keeps the plebs out, but also a status barrier. They restrict supply deliberately to keep exclusivity. Tables at top end restaurants, Rolexes, Porsches, diamonds etc. All use the same business model.

The likes of a Porsche 911 IS a cut above the rest.  And if you have money - real money - why would you not want the best?

And yes maybe there is a pleb / status barrier for tables at top end restaurants, rolexes, Porsches, diamonds etc but thats how it is.  If i was incredibly successful and extraordinarily wealthy i wouldnt want to be seated near riff raff who turned up in the same car as i did.  Whats the point of money if its not to buy you exclusivity?

Personally if I was filthy rich I'd probably get a private jet, or take a trip into space. I'm not interested in status symbols, I wouldn't feel the need to be "exclusive", or feel I'm better than the "riff raff". I'd buy products/experiences which I'd enjoy for what they are, not what I think they say about me or think they set me apart from the plebs.

I definitely wouldn't buy a Porsche, Rolex, diamonds, or try to chat up the maitre d of the nearest michelin star restaurant

If i was filfthy rich i'd have a load of high end cars as i'm a bit of a petrol head.  I think many people who buy them are. 

Plus being in a high end Porsche, Bentley or similar is a very nice place to be.  I'd rather be wafted about in something like that rather than something average.  And whilst jet plane travel would be great, its not exactly ideal if you want to nip out to a friends house or out for the evening generally.

I'm more than happy to admit i'd rather not be anywhere near the vast majority of the general population.  A walk round any shopping centre of a weekend reinforces that for me.  If being mega rich gave me further opportunities not to have to, i'm all for it.

Wouldnt be in to Rolexes (i dont wear a watch at all).  Not in to diamonds either.  Would have more cars round me though.  I do enjoy performance cars.  Dont need to chat anyone up as i'm happily married and i'm sure i'd have someone who could make the reservations happen

I just need a lottery win now.  If only i'd been born rich instead of so damn good looking. 

motorguy

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

fred990 said:

Even if you're worth a few quid you'll be treated with disdain/contempt at a BMW dealer!

I've yet to work out how to be 'qualified' by these salesmen. 

The top-end market in anything is a strange world. Top end restaurants are notorious for rude staff, and impossibility of getting tables unless you book a month in advance, or know the maitre d. Try to buy a Rolex and you might find you can't even if you have the money https://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/style/cant-buy-rolex-not-price/ Similar with top end sports cars, there might be a 5 year waiting list and strict criteria to even get on it.

You'd have thought if demand exceeds supply they'd either increase supply or just jack the price up even further until demand matched supply, usual rule of economics. But that doesn't seem to work at the top end - possibly down to the reason people buy top end products in the first place, ie to show off, to demonstrate their status.

It's probably a bit vulgar for wealth to be the only thing they're showing off about, so there's also the element of how well connected you are, your status with the suppliers of the top-end product. You know the maitre d at Restaurant du Posh so you can get a table tomorrow whereas those without status have to wait a month. You have status with the posh jewellers so you are "allowed" to buy a Rolex. You're not just rich, you're well connected.

Theres a lot of speculators try to buy in to premium cars, trying to make a quick buck flipping the cars.

So its not unreasonable that the dealers want to make sure you're not going to do that, and that you're a known quantity to them.

I'm on Pistonheads and you do hear of people on there who have went in to Porsche to buy some limited edition high end GT3 or whatever (or at least, to speculatively put the deposit down on the waiting list) and to be point blank refused.

Even with regular Porsches like a 911 its quite usual for a year old 911 to cost 10% more than a new one - because the waiting list for a new one is two years.

But why do they care? They're selling a product, why are they bothered what the buyer then does with it? Of course some people will speculate if the second hand price is higher than the new price, but the question is why is the second hand price higher than new, it makes no economic sense in a free market. Except perhaps temporarily when (like now) there are supply bottlenecks. But not long term, as seems to happen in all top-end markets.

If the product is profitable and so popular that there are always waiting lists, then why aren't they expanding, setting up new factories and making more of them? Or if there's some reason they can't, then why aren't they simply raising their prices until demand matches supply?

Because the speculator will likely never come back - they'll want a quick buck and move on.  If they cultivate long term relationships then they make profit every time, not just once.

Why not? If the situation stays the same ie second hand prices higher, the speculator will likely want a repeat, and again, and again. Could be a better long term customer than the posers

With a two year waiting list on a new car, and theres only a tiny supply of 1 year old cars (as owners will have waited 2 years to own it, so are unlikely to sell that soon).  For example if you wanted to buy a 2022 911 Carerra tomorrow, theres only 8 for sale across the entire country, according to Autotrader.  And theres people who will pay more than list price for a year old one, knowing the depreciation will be relatively low over the long term anyway.

RE: why not make more?  Because theres a tipping point.  Make too many and exclusivity is lost, you have to start to discount, residuals start to fall, etc.  Its easier to make high profit on fewer cars than to chase volume and lose margin.  Plus Porsche are part of a much bigger group.  They dont want / need to be a volume seller.  Theres Audi, VW, etc for that.

There is a tipping point, where supply and demand match. That's how markets usually work. Expensive cars (or watches etc) will never be high volume simply because most people can't afford them, but top-end there seems to be additional deliberate barriers to ownership to make the product hard to get hold of even you can afford it.

I guess even top end products lose their snob value if lottery winners or people who've come into a big inheritance buy them

Yes, absolutely to all of that.  You cant stop a lottery winner going in and buying a new or used Ferrari or Porsche (i'll be first there when my numbers come up), but they're the exception not the rule.  Perhaps a speculator may come back a second time, but almost certainly they wont, and why would you risk peeing off loyal customers to give a speculator a slot on a very short list?

Clearly Porsche know their market much better than you or i, and as such have trodden the fine line of supply / demand / exclusivity for quite a number of decades and been very very successful, so its hard to criticise their approach.

If second hand prices stay above new, why wouldn't a speculator be a repeat customer??

Of course they know their market. That's the point.

It would seem, if being refused the opportunity to put a speculative deposit on a new Porsche GT3 or similar, saying "well if i flog this one and make money on it i might come back and buy another" doesnt really hold much water.  To be honest, i'm quite comfortable with that.  

Yes, so i guess we have to trust that they know what they're doing then dont we?

zagfles

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

It's probably like with any top-end product, buyers generally don't buy because it's a great product worth the high price. They buy because they want to be seen as a cut above the rest, having not only the wealth to be able to afford the product but also be "on the list", have status with suppliers of the top-end product/service. The product loses its snob value if too many people have them, or they're too easy to get hold of. So they not only have a price barrier that keeps the plebs out, but also a status barrier. They restrict supply deliberately to keep exclusivity. Tables at top end restaurants, Rolexes, Porsches, diamonds etc. All use the same business model.

The likes of a Porsche 911 IS a cut above the rest.  And if you have money - real money - why would you not want the best?

And yes maybe there is a pleb / status barrier for tables at top end restaurants, rolexes, Porsches, diamonds etc but thats how it is.  If i was incredibly successful and extraordinarily wealthy i wouldnt want to be seated near riff raff who turned up in the same car as i did.  Whats the point of money if its not to buy you exclusivity?

Personally if I was filthy rich I'd probably get a private jet, or take a trip into space. I'm not interested in status symbols, I wouldn't feel the need to be "exclusive", or feel I'm better than the "riff raff". I'd buy products/experiences which I'd enjoy for what they are, not what I think they say about me or think they set me apart from the plebs.

I definitely wouldn't buy a Porsche, Rolex, diamonds, or try to chat up the maitre d of the nearest michelin star restaurant

If i was filfthy rich i'd have a load of high end cars as i'm a bit of a petrol head.  I think many people who buy them are. 

Plus being in a high end Porsche, Bentley or similar is a very nice place to be.  I'd rather be wafted about in something like that rather than something average.  And whilst jet plane travel would be great, its not exactly ideal if you want to nip out to a friends house or out for the evening generally.

I'm more than happy to admit i'd rather not be anywhere near the vast majority of the general population.  A walk round any shopping centre of a weekend reinforces that for me.  If being mega rich gave me further opportunities not to have to, i'm all for it.

Wouldnt be in to Rolexes (i dont wear a watch at all).  Not in to diamonds either.  Would have more cars round me though.  I do enjoy performance cars.  Dont need to chat anyone up as i'm happily married and i'm sure i'd have someone who could make the reservations happen

I just need a lottery win now.  If only i'd been born rich instead of so damn good looking. 

I'd probably get a good big car and a chauffer, driving on the UK roads is a PITA most of the time and I'd leave that chore to someone else Not sure what car as I know nothing about top end cars, find it a bit sad to drool over something I probably won't get.

I can't see the point in a sporty fast car that can do 300 mph and 0 to 60 in half a second for use on the public roads. Maybe on a private racetrack where you can actually make use of it properly and no annoying things like speed limits and plebs in ordinary cars getting in the way But I'm more into flying these days, and I can afford it - about 3-4k to get a microlight licence, and you're definitely away from the rest of the population in the sky!

zagfles

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

fred990 said:

Even if you're worth a few quid you'll be treated with disdain/contempt at a BMW dealer!

I've yet to work out how to be 'qualified' by these salesmen. 

The top-end market in anything is a strange world. Top end restaurants are notorious for rude staff, and impossibility of getting tables unless you book a month in advance, or know the maitre d. Try to buy a Rolex and you might find you can't even if you have the money https://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/style/cant-buy-rolex-not-price/ Similar with top end sports cars, there might be a 5 year waiting list and strict criteria to even get on it.

You'd have thought if demand exceeds supply they'd either increase supply or just jack the price up even further until demand matched supply, usual rule of economics. But that doesn't seem to work at the top end - possibly down to the reason people buy top end products in the first place, ie to show off, to demonstrate their status.

It's probably a bit vulgar for wealth to be the only thing they're showing off about, so there's also the element of how well connected you are, your status with the suppliers of the top-end product. You know the maitre d at Restaurant du Posh so you can get a table tomorrow whereas those without status have to wait a month. You have status with the posh jewellers so you are "allowed" to buy a Rolex. You're not just rich, you're well connected.

Theres a lot of speculators try to buy in to premium cars, trying to make a quick buck flipping the cars.

So its not unreasonable that the dealers want to make sure you're not going to do that, and that you're a known quantity to them.

I'm on Pistonheads and you do hear of people on there who have went in to Porsche to buy some limited edition high end GT3 or whatever (or at least, to speculatively put the deposit down on the waiting list) and to be point blank refused.

Even with regular Porsches like a 911 its quite usual for a year old 911 to cost 10% more than a new one - because the waiting list for a new one is two years.

But why do they care? They're selling a product, why are they bothered what the buyer then does with it? Of course some people will speculate if the second hand price is higher than the new price, but the question is why is the second hand price higher than new, it makes no economic sense in a free market. Except perhaps temporarily when (like now) there are supply bottlenecks. But not long term, as seems to happen in all top-end markets.

If the product is profitable and so popular that there are always waiting lists, then why aren't they expanding, setting up new factories and making more of them? Or if there's some reason they can't, then why aren't they simply raising their prices until demand matches supply?

Because the speculator will likely never come back - they'll want a quick buck and move on.  If they cultivate long term relationships then they make profit every time, not just once.

Why not? If the situation stays the same ie second hand prices higher, the speculator will likely want a repeat, and again, and again. Could be a better long term customer than the posers

With a two year waiting list on a new car, and theres only a tiny supply of 1 year old cars (as owners will have waited 2 years to own it, so are unlikely to sell that soon).  For example if you wanted to buy a 2022 911 Carerra tomorrow, theres only 8 for sale across the entire country, according to Autotrader.  And theres people who will pay more than list price for a year old one, knowing the depreciation will be relatively low over the long term anyway.

RE: why not make more?  Because theres a tipping point.  Make too many and exclusivity is lost, you have to start to discount, residuals start to fall, etc.  Its easier to make high profit on fewer cars than to chase volume and lose margin.  Plus Porsche are part of a much bigger group.  They dont want / need to be a volume seller.  Theres Audi, VW, etc for that.

There is a tipping point, where supply and demand match. That's how markets usually work. Expensive cars (or watches etc) will never be high volume simply because most people can't afford them, but top-end there seems to be additional deliberate barriers to ownership to make the product hard to get hold of even you can afford it.

I guess even top end products lose their snob value if lottery winners or people who've come into a big inheritance buy them

Yes, absolutely to all of that.  You cant stop a lottery winner going in and buying a new or used Ferrari or Porsche (i'll be first there when my numbers come up), but they're the exception not the rule.  Perhaps a speculator may come back a second time, but almost certainly they wont, and why would you risk peeing off loyal customers to give a speculator a slot on a very short list?

Clearly Porsche know their market much better than you or i, and as such have trodden the fine line of supply / demand / exclusivity for quite a number of decades and been very very successful, so its hard to criticise their approach.

If second hand prices stay above new, why wouldn't a speculator be a repeat customer??

Of course they know their market. That's the point.

It would seem, if being refused the opportunity to put a speculative deposit on a new Porsche GT3 or similar, saying "well if i flog this one and make money on it i might come back and buy another" doesnt really hold much water.  To be honest, i'm quite comfortable with that.  

Yes, so i guess we have to trust that they know what they're doing then dont we?

??

Not sure if you're being whooshed here and missing the blatently obvious, or we're talking at cross purposes, but if a speculator could make a profit by buying new and selling on, why wouldn't he want to do it again? And again? A speculator is a dead cert as a repeat customer!

Obviously it'd eventually tarnish the exclusivity of the brand and that's why they try to avoid selling to them. But nothing to do with potential repeat custom.

Anyway apologies for derailing this thread, I'd better bow out now...

ontheroad1970

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

fred990 said:

Even if you're worth a few quid you'll be treated with disdain/contempt at a BMW dealer!

I've yet to work out how to be 'qualified' by these salesmen. 

The top-end market in anything is a strange world. Top end restaurants are notorious for rude staff, and impossibility of getting tables unless you book a month in advance, or know the maitre d. Try to buy a Rolex and you might find you can't even if you have the money https://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/style/cant-buy-rolex-not-price/ Similar with top end sports cars, there might be a 5 year waiting list and strict criteria to even get on it.

You'd have thought if demand exceeds supply they'd either increase supply or just jack the price up even further until demand matched supply, usual rule of economics. But that doesn't seem to work at the top end - possibly down to the reason people buy top end products in the first place, ie to show off, to demonstrate their status.

It's probably a bit vulgar for wealth to be the only thing they're showing off about, so there's also the element of how well connected you are, your status with the suppliers of the top-end product. You know the maitre d at Restaurant du Posh so you can get a table tomorrow whereas those without status have to wait a month. You have status with the posh jewellers so you are "allowed" to buy a Rolex. You're not just rich, you're well connected.

Theres a lot of speculators try to buy in to premium cars, trying to make a quick buck flipping the cars.

So its not unreasonable that the dealers want to make sure you're not going to do that, and that you're a known quantity to them.

I'm on Pistonheads and you do hear of people on there who have went in to Porsche to buy some limited edition high end GT3 or whatever (or at least, to speculatively put the deposit down on the waiting list) and to be point blank refused.

Even with regular Porsches like a 911 its quite usual for a year old 911 to cost 10% more than a new one - because the waiting list for a new one is two years.

But why do they care? They're selling a product, why are they bothered what the buyer then does with it? Of course some people will speculate if the second hand price is higher than the new price, but the question is why is the second hand price higher than new, it makes no economic sense in a free market. Except perhaps temporarily when (like now) there are supply bottlenecks. But not long term, as seems to happen in all top-end markets.

If the product is profitable and so popular that there are always waiting lists, then why aren't they expanding, setting up new factories and making more of them? Or if there's some reason they can't, then why aren't they simply raising their prices until demand matches supply?

Because the speculator will likely never come back - they'll want a quick buck and move on.  If they cultivate long term relationships then they make profit every time, not just once.

Why not? If the situation stays the same ie second hand prices higher, the speculator will likely want a repeat, and again, and again. Could be a better long term customer than the posers

With a two year waiting list on a new car, and theres only a tiny supply of 1 year old cars (as owners will have waited 2 years to own it, so are unlikely to sell that soon).  For example if you wanted to buy a 2022 911 Carerra tomorrow, theres only 8 for sale across the entire country, according to Autotrader.  And theres people who will pay more than list price for a year old one, knowing the depreciation will be relatively low over the long term anyway.

RE: why not make more?  Because theres a tipping point.  Make too many and exclusivity is lost, you have to start to discount, residuals start to fall, etc.  Its easier to make high profit on fewer cars than to chase volume and lose margin.  Plus Porsche are part of a much bigger group.  They dont want / need to be a volume seller.  Theres Audi, VW, etc for that.

There is a tipping point, where supply and demand match. That's how markets usually work. Expensive cars (or watches etc) will never be high volume simply because most people can't afford them, but top-end there seems to be additional deliberate barriers to ownership to make the product hard to get hold of even you can afford it.

I guess even top end products lose their snob value if lottery winners or people who've come into a big inheritance buy them

Much of the reason for the higher price is that the seller/manufacturer deliberately restricts the number to increase demand at the same time as restricting supply, thereby pushing up desirability and therefore prices.

ontheroad1970

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

It's probably like with any top-end product, buyers generally don't buy because it's a great product worth the high price. They buy because they want to be seen as a cut above the rest, having not only the wealth to be able to afford the product but also be "on the list", have status with suppliers of the top-end product/service. The product loses its snob value if too many people have them, or they're too easy to get hold of. So they not only have a price barrier that keeps the plebs out, but also a status barrier. They restrict supply deliberately to keep exclusivity. Tables at top end restaurants, Rolexes, Porsches, diamonds etc. All use the same business model.

The likes of a Porsche 911 IS a cut above the rest.  And if you have money - real money - why would you not want the best?

And yes maybe there is a pleb / status barrier for tables at top end restaurants, rolexes, Porsches, diamonds etc but thats how it is.  If i was incredibly successful and extraordinarily wealthy i wouldnt want to be seated near riff raff who turned up in the same car as i did.  Whats the point of money if its not to buy you exclusivity?

Personally if I was filthy rich I'd probably get a private jet, or take a trip into space. I'm not interested in status symbols, I wouldn't feel the need to be "exclusive", or feel I'm better than the "riff raff". I'd buy products/experiences which I'd enjoy for what they are, not what I think they say about me or think they set me apart from the plebs.

I definitely wouldn't buy a Porsche, Rolex, diamonds, or try to chat up the maitre d of the nearest michelin star restaurant

If i was filfthy rich i'd have a load of high end cars as i'm a bit of a petrol head.  I think many people who buy them are. 

Plus being in a high end Porsche, Bentley or similar is a very nice place to be.  I'd rather be wafted about in something like that rather than something average.  And whilst jet plane travel would be great, its not exactly ideal if you want to nip out to a friends house or out for the evening generally.

I'm more than happy to admit i'd rather not be anywhere near the vast majority of the general population.  A walk round any shopping centre of a weekend reinforces that for me.  If being mega rich gave me further opportunities not to have to, i'm all for it.

Wouldnt be in to Rolexes (i dont wear a watch at all).  Not in to diamonds either.  Would have more cars round me though.  I do enjoy performance cars.  Dont need to chat anyone up as i'm happily married and i'm sure i'd have someone who could make the reservations happen

I just need a lottery win now.  If only i'd been born rich instead of so damn good looking. 

I'd probably get a good big car and a chauffer, driving on the UK roads is a PITA most of the time and I'd leave that chore to someone else Not sure what car as I know nothing about top end cars, find it a bit sad to drool over something I probably won't get.

I can't see the point in a sporty fast car that can do 300 mph and 0 to 60 in half a second for use on the public roads. Maybe on a private racetrack where you can actually make use of it properly and no annoying things like speed limits and plebs in ordinary cars getting in the way But I'm more into flying these days, and I can afford it - about 3-4k to get a microlight licence, and you're definitely away from the rest of the population in the sky!

Because they would rather sell to Mr I A M Rich every year or two than sell the last one to someone who will move on to something else the minute that the market normalises.

Herzlos

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

motorguy said:

zagfles said:

fred990 said:

Even if you're worth a few quid you'll be treated with disdain/contempt at a BMW dealer!

I've yet to work out how to be 'qualified' by these salesmen. 

The top-end market in anything is a strange world. Top end restaurants are notorious for rude staff, and impossibility of getting tables unless you book a month in advance, or know the maitre d. Try to buy a Rolex and you might find you can't even if you have the money https://www.telegraph.co.uk/fashion/style/cant-buy-rolex-not-price/ Similar with top end sports cars, there might be a 5 year waiting list and strict criteria to even get on it.

You'd have thought if demand exceeds supply they'd either increase supply or just jack the price up even further until demand matched supply, usual rule of economics. But that doesn't seem to work at the top end - possibly down to the reason people buy top end products in the first place, ie to show off, to demonstrate their status.

It's probably a bit vulgar for wealth to be the only thing they're showing off about, so there's also the element of how well connected you are, your status with the suppliers of the top-end product. You know the maitre d at Restaurant du Posh so you can get a table tomorrow whereas those without status have to wait a month. You have status with the posh jewellers so you are "allowed" to buy a Rolex. You're not just rich, you're well connected.

Theres a lot of speculators try to buy in to premium cars, trying to make a quick buck flipping the cars.

So its not unreasonable that the dealers want to make sure you're not going to do that, and that you're a known quantity to them.

I'm on Pistonheads and you do hear of people on there who have went in to Porsche to buy some limited edition high end GT3 or whatever (or at least, to speculatively put the deposit down on the waiting list) and to be point blank refused.

Even with regular Porsches like a 911 its quite usual for a year old 911 to cost 10% more than a new one - because the waiting list for a new one is two years.

But why do they care? They're selling a product, why are they bothered what the buyer then does with it? Of course some people will speculate if the second hand price is higher than the new price, but the question is why is the second hand price higher than new, it makes no economic sense in a free market. Except perhaps temporarily when (like now) there are supply bottlenecks. But not long term, as seems to happen in all top-end markets.

If the product is profitable and so popular that there are always waiting lists, then why aren't they expanding, setting up new factories and making more of them? Or if there's some reason they can't, then why aren't they simply raising their prices until demand matches supply?

Because the speculator will likely never come back - they'll want a quick buck and move on.  If they cultivate long term relationships then they make profit every time, not just once.

Why not? If the situation stays the same ie second hand prices higher, the speculator will likely want a repeat, and again, and again. Could be a better long term customer than the posers

With a two year waiting list on a new car, and theres only a tiny supply of 1 year old cars (as owners will have waited 2 years to own it, so are unlikely to sell that soon).  For example if you wanted to buy a 2022 911 Carerra tomorrow, theres only 8 for sale across the entire country, according to Autotrader.  And theres people who will pay more than list price for a year old one, knowing the depreciation will be relatively low over the long term anyway.

RE: why not make more?  Because theres a tipping point.  Make too many and exclusivity is lost, you have to start to discount, residuals start to fall, etc.  Its easier to make high profit on fewer cars than to chase volume and lose margin.  Plus Porsche are part of a much bigger group.  They dont want / need to be a volume seller.  Theres Audi, VW, etc for that.

There is a tipping point, where supply and demand match. That's how markets usually work. Expensive cars (or watches etc) will never be high volume simply because most people can't afford them, but top-end there seems to be additional deliberate barriers to ownership to make the product hard to get hold of even you can afford it.

I guess even top end products lose their snob value if lottery winners or people who've come into a big inheritance buy them

Yes, absolutely to all of that.  You cant stop a lottery winner going in and buying a new or used Ferrari or Porsche (i'll be first there when my numbers come up), but they're the exception not the rule.  Perhaps a speculator may come back a second time, but almost certainly they wont, and why would you risk peeing off loyal customers to give a speculator a slot on a very short list?

Clearly Porsche know their market much better than you or i, and as such have trodden the fine line of supply / demand / exclusivity for quite a number of decades and been very very successful, so its hard to criticise their approach.

If second hand prices stay above new, why wouldn't a speculator be a repeat customer??

Of course they know their market. That's the point.

It would seem, if being refused the opportunity to put a speculative deposit on a new Porsche GT3 or similar, saying "well if i flog this one and make money on it i might come back and buy another" doesnt really hold much water.  To be honest, i'm quite comfortable with that.  

Yes, so i guess we have to trust that they know what they're doing then dont we?

??

Not sure if you're being whooshed here and missing the blatently obvious, or we're talking at cross purposes, but if a speculator could make a profit by buying new and selling on, why wouldn't he want to do it again? And again? A speculator is a dead cert as a repeat customer!

Obviously it'd eventually tarnish the exclusivity of the brand and that's why they try to avoid selling to them. But nothing to do with potential repeat custom.

Anyway apologies for derailing this thread, I'd better bow out now...

The regular customer will bring the car back in for servicing, maintenance etc, which is where a lot of the profit comes from. They'll potentially buy more than one car in the future.

The speculator is buying the car and that's it. It'll be sold on and job done. Who knows what happens with it after that - will they take it to an independent? Will they sell it across the country?
The speculator will disappear if they can't make enough profit, or if they can get it cheaper elsewhere, as there's no loyalty.

Herzlos

zagfles said:

Grumpy_chap said:

motorguy said:

They will qualify you, yes, but it'll be subtle and correct 98% of the time.

Well, I must be doing something wrong then as I've been "qualified out" more times than I can remember. 

On several occasions, I've just given up and stuck with the car I want (a new car is a large and discretionary purchase, so if the vendor doesn't want the sale, I don't need to give it to them).

Not the full urban myth you mention, but on two occasions I've been in the Dealership with my cheque book ready to place a deposit for a brand new car and walked out to then place the business elsewhere.  A short interval of time later, the Dealer will phone asking if I plan to go ahead and I'll tell them the order is gone elsewhere and the response has been "I'd have matched that if you came back to me".  In these modern days, Dealers must be aware that serious buyers have already researched market-price and discounts ahead of attending the showroom.  (Both were before COVID disruptions).

Car Dealers are no different to any high-end product retailer. 
In May this year, my wife and I were killing time in a shopping centre and popped into a jewellers, where my wife saw a lovely (but absurdly expensive and unaffordable) watch.  The sales representative quickly turned to "are you buying this watch, or leave my shop".  That was a busy Saturday and we were in scruffs.
It so happened that on Thursday this week, I was in the same shopping centre killing time, so I looked at the same watch and the sales representative was keen to make a sale.  The only obvious difference being that I was in a suit, though perhaps my mention that the watch was on display at 25% higher than I'd seen earlier in the year had an impact - but that conversation only happened after I had been initially "qualified in".
Sorry - but the qualification based on appearances is real and current.

I know someone who used to work in a high end jewellers, he had a sales technique he used when couples came in looking at jewellery together. If they didn't look posh, but were looking at the expensive stuff, he'd look them up and down with disdain and then point out they also have another (cheaper) range that they "might be more interested in". 

This would often get the bloke's testosterone surging and he'd make clear they're not interested in the cheap stuff, and wanted to have a proper look at the expensive stuff, he'd sigh and get the tray out, point out that they don't offer credit, and then quite often get a sale on a ridiculously expensive item just so the bloke could prove him wrong and prove to his gf/wife what a great provider he is and that she doesn't have to settle for the cheap stuff

This is definitely a sales technique and why a lot of sales staff seem snobbish and difficult - some customers (particularly men) can easily be provoked into spending more than they intended in an attempt to "prove the sales guy wrong".

I've had the bums-rush at a Jag dealer before; went in to ask about an older X-Type (because I wanted an AWD estate) and ended up outside without any attempt to sell me anything else. It turns out the car had been passed on to an independent nearby so I went there and bought without trouble.

But I was a pretty young scruffy looking guy, asking about the cheapest car they had in stock by a long margin.

motorguy

??

Not sure if you're being whooshed here and missing the blatently obvious, or we're talking at cross purposes, but if a speculator could make a profit by buying new and selling on, why wouldn't he want to do it again? And again? A speculator is a dead cert as a repeat customer!

Obviously it'd eventually tarnish the exclusivity of the brand and that's why they try to avoid selling to them. But nothing to do with potential repeat custom.

Anyway apologies for derailing this thread, I'd better bow out now...

The point was - high end car dealers stop speculators buying limited edition cars that are likely to be instantly worth more than list.

I said that was because they were one off purchases and hadnt a history with the brand.  

You said but speculators may subsequently buy more cars to speculate on so shouldnt be prevented from buying.

My point was the dealer doesnt know that when they come in to buy their first car, and saying you might buy more in the future if you think theres going to be profit it in is unlikely to hold much sway.

Hence - those who are speculators tend to be prevented from buying in to limited run high end cars.

HTH

fred990

Possibly 50 bps on bank rate for Feb and March...Fed now talking 5.5%.

Never needed to look at pcp so wonder how high the rates would go towards being too expensive?