Tyres performed poorly in recent snow — get better summer ones or all-season?

400ixl

The fact they have near copied the tread pattern is not necessarily a sign they are any good. The compound is even more important.

Not that tyre tests are that accurate as they are often paid for by suppliers, but this tyre does not even make the top 50 in the Autobild test which is one of the largest out there and is classed as not recommended.

You don't need to spend a fortune, but don't buy these. There will be plenty of better value higher performing tyres out there.

DocQuincy

400ixl said:

The fact they have near copied the tread pattern is not necessarily a sign they are any good. The compound is even more important.

Not that tyre tests are that accurate as they are often paid for by suppliers, but this tyre does not even make the top 50 in the Autobild test which is one of the largest out there and is classed as not recommended.

You don't need to spend a fortune, but don't buy these. There will be plenty of better value higher performing tyres out there.

Don't buy the AP3s? Do you know of any that are decent but not as much as the Cross Climate 2s?

400ixl

Hankook Kinergy 4S2
Falken EUROALL SEASON AS210
Vredestein Quatrac Pro
Nokian SeasonProof

One of these should be able to be purchased for a decent price. All well proven manufacturers and tyres. 

baser999

Auto Bild SUV all season tyre test 2022 rated the Cross Climate top, Maxxis 10th

[Deleted User]

DocQuincy said:

. Ours did make it up but needed a bit of pushing and was sliding left to right a bit in spite of using higher gears and not breaking, as you would in the snow. This would have been difficult if no one else was there.

The higher gears myth never seems to get called out or explained properly because nobody gets enough practice on slippery snow/mud etc to figure out why and when a higher gear is relevant in some circumstances.

The fact you were going sideways suggests you were spinning the wheels, once they start to spin it doesn't matter which gear it is in, you have no grip. And even worse, the natural reaction is the steer the car in the wrong direction when this happens which further reduces grip. The fact is you were delivering too much torque to the wheels for the grip available.

Where you said "higher gears" puzzles me, especially given that you were being pushed at the time so I'd assume setting off from standstill. Which gear was it then? 3rd or higher in a road car would be silly in the snow uphill so unsure why you said "higher gears" rather than just saying 2nd unless you were revving hard and using 3rd or higher which just defeats the whole objective of torque control?.

Minimising the torque going to the wheels and more importantly, the rate of change of torque is what helps control a car in slippery conditions which are where higher gears can help but only when combined with precise control of torque delivery which is best a low revs. A small press of the throttle in a higher gear results in a lesser increase in torque than a low gear and less chance of wheel spin, but only if the speed is suitable for the amount of grip available. You need to use a lot of clutch slipping to get moving from a stop in those "higher gears" uphill without risking a stall. But also those "higher gears" need more speed once the clutch stops slipping and that speed could be too fast for the conditions. 

I had to tackle an uphill back alley last week with sheet ice on it, a couple of cars gave up, and I sauntered up with 3mm summer tyres with no loss of grip. How? 1st gear, no accelerator press whatsoever, I just brought the clutch up very gently, released the foot brake slightly at the biting point just to get the car moving but still braking slightly to prevent wheelspin and then gently released both and let it pull at idle probably about 2 mph. Setting off in 2nd gear would have needed me to press the accelerator and almost certainly put too much power down or too much speed to steer the car once I was moving. Sometimes lower gear is better in slippy conditions, the trick is putting minimal torque to the wheels using whatever gear is most appropriate.

Control of torque is the key factor, choosing a speed/gear that gives the best control is more important than blindly following some hand-me-down rule of using "higher gears" without understanding the reasoning. Low revs is equally as important, and if higher gears help you use low revs then great, otherwise no.

DocQuincy

Thanks for the detailed info. That's really interesting about your experience going up the hill in first. 
You're probably right in your assessment and higher gears does seem to be circulated as a panacea for snow and ice. 
Also, it is very rare to drive in the snow, for us at least. 

Flight3287462

Tyres are a pain to buy.  You need to search quite hard to get the best price, look for discounts on 2 or more, decide whether to buy fitted or not (do you have a local fitter?), some can take a little longer if they are coming from Europe. Keep your mind open have two or the tyres in mind and then go and find the best deal taking all the options in to account.

Cross Climates will be great but you could save a fair bit buying another good brand.

Interestingly I have noted the older I get the better my tyres get.  This was after a pair of Chinese ditch finders that I bought in an emergency would just never seem to die, but when I found myself facing the wrong way on a roundabout twice that brought about my Damascene moment.

BikingBud

Do not compromise on tyres!

As a cyclist, motorcyclist and driver it is just not worth it. Tyres save lives!

I have lived in Bavaria, heavy snow and the world still runs, and now have the habit of changing to winters, separate wheels and tyres, in autumn on my car.

For the rest of the family the transition to all-season, cross climate or similar, is part of the plan but looking to do it at the most cost effective time, therefore watching current tyre wear and tracking prices.

I do think that winter driving, well all driving really, is a skill that has to be acquired and practiced regularly. Knowing your vehicle and how it will respond, to ensure your actions and the effect upon stopping distances is a critical but seldom practiced ability.

chris_n

Another vote for CrossClimate2 from me and I live in the Alps! Every magazine, auto assistance club, newspaper etc here are obsessed with tyre tests. The Michelin wins the all season tests nearly every time.

As @[Deleted User] says you need minimum revs, the higher gear thing only applies once you are moving and again the idea is to keep the revs low.
Maybe your friends newer cars have traction control and use the brakes independently to stop wheelspin.

onomatopoeia99

daveyjp said:

I've had 4wd cars with all season tyres and summer tyres.  All season wins every time in snow, a 4wd with summer will spin all four wheels.

My 4wd (VW Caravelle) on summer tyres is good in snow.  So good it pulled away from a standing start on a 1 in 6 snow covered hill that the police were in the process of closing as "impassable" while I was half way up it waiting for the chap in the Yaris in front of me that was stuck to get pushed round so he could descend.  I just asked the policewoman if it was blocked at the top or I could get out, she said it was clear if I could get up there but I should go down so I didn't end up like the Yaris, so I drove off and straight out the top while she stared at me open mouthed as her 4wd police SUV thing couldn't make any progress.  Didn't even spin the wheels.

All season is definitely better in edge cases and I have them on my 2wd car, mainly because it's got this horrible "stability control" that stops you spinning the wheels by cutting the power, which is no good for traction on surfaces like thick mud or snow as you can't blast through it.