Batteries and saving sessions

1961Nick

Petriix said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

I got told off for even suggesting that it might be useful to know how the baseline was calculated....

In that case I'd suggest you don't visit this site...

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/266691/download

Very helpful. 

If payment is £3 per kwh saved then it unfortunately makes no sense for me to game as this is less than 10x the difference between my peak unit and off peak unit rates.....

You're misunderstanding how the calculation works. The 'in day adjustment' is calculated over the three hours starting four hours before the saving session (1-4pm for a 5pm session).

All you have to do is maximise your usage in those 3 hours and you'll be credited with 'saving' the difference between that and your normal use during that 3 hour window (plus any savings you actually make in the session itself).

The baseline is calculated over the 10 working days prior to the savings session excluding any savings session days. The "in day adjustment" is to correct any specific effects on the saving session day - for instance unusual weather.

If in the unlikely event that there was a savings session on a weekend day, the previous 10 weekend days would be used for the baseline calculation, again excluding any savings session days. 

1961Nick

I guess that those with batteries insufficient to last a full day with an overnight grid charge, could insert an additional 5pm to 7pm charge to create a significant baseline of 3kWh/hr + whatever their household consumption was over this period. As long as that energy was used before the next off peak charging period the only cost would be the round trip loss. On the savings session day, a charge could be scheduled before the saving session to maximise the 'in day adjustment'.

Not very ethical - but that's how to do it.

paul991

why not ethical its only the saving session they are desparate to lower consumption for

1961Nick

paul991 said:

why not ethical its only the saving session they are desparate to lower consumption for

It's because you'd be using your battery to artificially create a baseline.

Normally my baseline would be zero but I've been hammering the heat pump recently & the batteries are done by midday. I didn't do it on purpose but if you wanted to game the scheme you could do.

Petriix

michaels said:

Petriix said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

I got told off for even suggesting that it might be useful to know how the baseline was calculated....

In that case I'd suggest you don't visit this site...

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/266691/download

Very helpful. 

If payment is £3 per kwh saved then it unfortunately makes no sense for me to game as this is less than 10x the difference between my peak unit and off peak unit rates.....

You're misunderstanding how the calculation works. The 'in day adjustment' is calculated over the three hours starting four hours before the saving session (1-4pm for a 5pm session).

All you have to do is maximise your usage in those 3 hours and you'll be credited with 'saving' the difference between that and your normal use during that 3 hour window (plus any savings you actually make in the session itself).

Thanks - missed that bit, had assumed that as my use is basically zero during all the hours in question that there would be no in day adjustment applicable and I would have to instead use peak units during the session window in the 10 days before each session and that due to averaging any saving would be one tenth of that usage.  If I can basically bump up the level just by using electricity in a three hour window then the maths looks like:

3 x 1kwh (shift in day adjustment up by 1kwh) would then allow a 1kwh session saving to be calculated - 3 x 45.5p is smaller than £3 (assuming that is what the utility is offering)

[Also as I could put the pre-use into the battery displacing night rate charging then it actually only costs 45.5 - 4.5 = 41p per unit to charge up.  Probably max in the three hour period would be 15kwh into battery so 5 x (3.00 - 1.23) profit per one hour session - are some of the sessions 2 hours long?]

You're thinking along the right lines. Basically, say your average use is 500W, if you used 10.5kW for the 3 hours of the in day adjustment calculation then you'd have an extra 5kWh added to your baseline average for each 30 minute period of the actual saving session.

Even if you keep using your usual 500W, you'll still 'save' 5kWh for each 30 minutes. Using an extra 10kW for 3 hours costs about £10.50 on the price cap. 'Saving' 5kWh earns you £11.25 (per 30 minutes of the saving session). For yesterday's two-hour session that's potentially £34.50 (4x £11.25 - £10.50).

Petriix

1961Nick said:

Petriix said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

I got told off for even suggesting that it might be useful to know how the baseline was calculated....

In that case I'd suggest you don't visit this site...

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/266691/download

Very helpful. 

If payment is £3 per kwh saved then it unfortunately makes no sense for me to game as this is less than 10x the difference between my peak unit and off peak unit rates.....

You're misunderstanding how the calculation works. The 'in day adjustment' is calculated over the three hours starting four hours before the saving session (1-4pm for a 5pm session).

All you have to do is maximise your usage in those 3 hours and you'll be credited with 'saving' the difference between that and your normal use during that 3 hour window (plus any savings you actually make in the session itself).

The baseline is calculated over the 10 working days prior to the savings session excluding any savings session days. The "in day adjustment" is to correct any specific effects on the saving session day - for instance unusual weather.

If in the unlikely event that there was a savings session on a weekend day, the previous 10 weekend days would be used for the baseline calculation, again excluding any savings session days. 

That's probably how it was intended, but not how it works in practice. It also picks up if you, for example, happened to charge your car during the 3 hour reference window. That might look similar to using your electric heating because it's colder - they have no way of differentiating.
 
Ultimately, if your usage in that 3 hours is higher than (your recent) average, you get a commensurate uplift on your baseline for the saving session. Their algorithm is wonky.

1961Nick

Petriix said:

1961Nick said:

Petriix said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

I got told off for even suggesting that it might be useful to know how the baseline was calculated....

In that case I'd suggest you don't visit this site...

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/266691/download

Very helpful. 

If payment is £3 per kwh saved then it unfortunately makes no sense for me to game as this is less than 10x the difference between my peak unit and off peak unit rates.....

You're misunderstanding how the calculation works. The 'in day adjustment' is calculated over the three hours starting four hours before the saving session (1-4pm for a 5pm session).

All you have to do is maximise your usage in those 3 hours and you'll be credited with 'saving' the difference between that and your normal use during that 3 hour window (plus any savings you actually make in the session itself).

The baseline is calculated over the 10 working days prior to the savings session excluding any savings session days. The "in day adjustment" is to correct any specific effects on the saving session day - for instance unusual weather.

If in the unlikely event that there was a savings session on a weekend day, the previous 10 weekend days would be used for the baseline calculation, again excluding any savings session days. 

That's probably how it was intended, but not how it works in practice. It also picks up if you, for example, happened to charge your car during the 3 hour reference window. That might look similar to using your electric heating because it's colder - they have no way of differentiating.
 
Ultimately, if your usage in that 3 hours is higher than (your recent) average, you get a commensurate uplift on your baseline for the saving session. Their algorithm is wonky.

What we don't know & isn't explained in detail is how the uplift works & what weighting it's given in adjusting the baseline.

The best way to gain an advantage is to 'bank' 10 days elevated consumption over the 5pm to 7pm period & then to make sure your consumption is high during the period before the savings session starts.

As far as ethics go, you could justify it by saying that by having invested in batteries you're already balancing demand & this is a small payback for that ethical investment. 

Petriix

1961Nick said:

Petriix said:

1961Nick said:

Petriix said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

I got told off for even suggesting that it might be useful to know how the baseline was calculated....

In that case I'd suggest you don't visit this site...

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/266691/download

Very helpful. 

If payment is £3 per kwh saved then it unfortunately makes no sense for me to game as this is less than 10x the difference between my peak unit and off peak unit rates.....

You're misunderstanding how the calculation works. The 'in day adjustment' is calculated over the three hours starting four hours before the saving session (1-4pm for a 5pm session).

All you have to do is maximise your usage in those 3 hours and you'll be credited with 'saving' the difference between that and your normal use during that 3 hour window (plus any savings you actually make in the session itself).

The baseline is calculated over the 10 working days prior to the savings session excluding any savings session days. The "in day adjustment" is to correct any specific effects on the saving session day - for instance unusual weather.

If in the unlikely event that there was a savings session on a weekend day, the previous 10 weekend days would be used for the baseline calculation, again excluding any savings session days. 

That's probably how it was intended, but not how it works in practice. It also picks up if you, for example, happened to charge your car during the 3 hour reference window. That might look similar to using your electric heating because it's colder - they have no way of differentiating.
 
Ultimately, if your usage in that 3 hours is higher than (your recent) average, you get a commensurate uplift on your baseline for the saving session. Their algorithm is wonky.

What we don't know & isn't explained in detail is how the uplift works & what weighting it's given in adjusting the baseline.

The best way to gain an advantage is to 'bank' 10 days elevated consumption over the 5pm to 7pm period & then to make sure your consumption is high during the period before the savings session starts.

As far as ethics go, you could justify it by saying that by having invested in batteries you're already balancing demand & this is a small payback for that ethical investment. 

We do know because the formula is published on the National Grid website.

The in day adjustment is calculated for the six 30-minute settlement periods starting four hours (and ending 1 hour) before the saving session by adding up the difference between use on the day compared to the previous eligible days (for a weekday saving session that's the last 10 weekdays excluding other saving session days) and dividing by 6.

That value is added to your average usage in each of the 30 minute periods (calculated in the same way as for the IDA over the previous 10 weekdays) in the saving session itself to create your adjusted baseline to which your actual usage on the day is compared.

I estimate that I could max out at gaining around £20 per hour of saving sessions by using a constant 10kW for the IDA reference 3 hours. This obviously depends on your current peak rate. 

pete-20-11

1961Nick said:

Petriix said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

I got told off for even suggesting that it might be useful to know how the baseline was calculated....

In that case I'd suggest you don't visit this site...

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/266691/download

Very helpful. 

If payment is £3 per kwh saved then it unfortunately makes no sense for me to game as this is less than 10x the difference between my peak unit and off peak unit rates.....

You're misunderstanding how the calculation works. The 'in day adjustment' is calculated over the three hours starting four hours before the saving session (1-4pm for a 5pm session).

All you have to do is maximise your usage in those 3 hours and you'll be credited with 'saving' the difference between that and your normal use during that 3 hour window (plus any savings you actually make in the session itself).

The baseline is calculated over the 10 working days prior to the savings session excluding any savings session days. The "in day adjustment" is to correct any specific effects on the saving session day - for instance unusual weather.

If in the unlikely event that there was a savings session on a weekend day, the previous 10 weekend days would be used for the baseline calculation, again excluding any savings session days. 

Think is the previous 4 weekend days, not 10. 

Petriix

pete-20-11 said:

1961Nick said:

Petriix said:

michaels said:

1961Nick said:

michaels said:

I got told off for even suggesting that it might be useful to know how the baseline was calculated....

In that case I'd suggest you don't visit this site...

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/266691/download

Very helpful. 

If payment is £3 per kwh saved then it unfortunately makes no sense for me to game as this is less than 10x the difference between my peak unit and off peak unit rates.....

You're misunderstanding how the calculation works. The 'in day adjustment' is calculated over the three hours starting four hours before the saving session (1-4pm for a 5pm session).

All you have to do is maximise your usage in those 3 hours and you'll be credited with 'saving' the difference between that and your normal use during that 3 hour window (plus any savings you actually make in the session itself).

The baseline is calculated over the 10 working days prior to the savings session excluding any savings session days. The "in day adjustment" is to correct any specific effects on the saving session day - for instance unusual weather.

If in the unlikely event that there was a savings session on a weekend day, the previous 10 weekend days would be used for the baseline calculation, again excluding any savings session days. 

Think is the previous 4 weekend days, not 10. 

It's actually the middle two (in terms of consumption) of the most recent 4 weekend days.