Reasons to give for refusing a smart meter

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] said:

Deleted_User said:

Bottom line is - if the paying customer isn't happy with the service and the energy companies don't give a damn....then we have a problem.

Nonsense.  It's not social welfare, it's not a monopoly, and it's not a mandatory service.  It is the entry into a voluntary contact with a company for a particular service.  If a paying customer doesn't like the service a company is offering them in an open market - they change company.

The regulator is there to make sure there isn't exploitation of this, and the regulator has said "give everyone a smart meter".

However much you wish to live in a libertarian Dreamland, or complain about corporate power, this is the actual real world here.

I agree it's not social welfare. Private companies shouldn't be involved in social welfare. 

I believe strongly in a free market with plenty of competition. That way businesses have a vested interest in pleasing the customer - as opposed to the trajectory we're on where businesses are starting to dictate to customers what they can think, do, buy etc. 

I also agree that we're in the actual real world and when businesses work with government to exert control over customer choice you have to think long and hard about your options. As people are fond of saying 'It's a private company - they can do what they want'. This is true. But we as customers can choose what to allow on our private property and where to take our custom. Right now, where energy is concerned that is EXTREMELY difficult as they have us over a barrel.

But those that feel strongly will consider their (albeit limited) options and decide what they want to do about it. 

And ultimately solutions that customers like WILL be found and new businesses (or existing ones) will offer services allowing all tastes to be catered for. 

GingerTim

Deleted_User said:

And ultimately solutions that customers like WILL be found and new businesses (or existing ones) will offer services allowing all tastes to be catered for. 

The chance of OFGEM granting a licence to a new energy supplier to provide non-smart metered access to the grid is less than zero.

[Deleted User]

The carrot hasn't been working, so they're moving to the stick).

If you are talking about replacing end-of-life meters with a smart meter, it was a pragmatic solution to a growing problem. 

In 2019 when we had a lot more suppliers than we have today, many of the smaller suppliers were waiting for SMETS2 before they started their rollout programmes.  They never invested in analogue meters as they had no obligation to do so: their default position for new installations and end-of-life replacements was SMETS2. BEIS accepted that this was the case.

That said, it really is time that moderators shut down this thread which, yet again, has become focussed on countering one person’s anti-smart meter views.

EssexHebridean

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MattMattMattUK said:

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Glass1970 said:

Hi all,
We're on that dreaded THTC tariff no-one knows about and I know time is running out and SSE will be wanting to change us over and I suspect they will use the opportunity to force a smart meter on us.
I don't really fancy one because of what I've heard about energy companies all to readily switching them into pre-payment modes.
I know I'll be told I'll be getting a new meter soon but I'd prefer a non-smart meter.
Does anyone know if these still exist or are they all smart meters now. And if so I think I'll need to quote the rule book to them so they don't force a smart meter on us. Can anyone tell me what I should say?
Thanks.

If they truly do have the legal right to install a smart meter against your will, and the will to exercise that right then there's little you can do - short of going off-grid.

Most people don't have the cash to test this in the courts. So quite frankly - the energy companies will be aware that they can coerce people into giving permission for this. Lets just say they have a vested interest in letting people believe that they have legal rights when really they don't. 

I think the best thing to do is write to them (recorded delivery), tell them you do not want a smart meter and ask them to tell you what the process will be if you don't give your permission. Ask them what the process will be (and who will cover the costs) if you refuse a smart meter and instead instruct them to move their faulty equipment from your home. Ask them to confirm that the only way to avoid having a smart meter (that you categorically do not want for your own personal reasons) is to be disconnected from the National Grid. 

Get them to put it all in writing. They won't be so keen to lie or mislead you in writing so ask very specific questions. 

It's section 39 of the electricity supply standard licence conditions (IIRC).

What those adamant that they won't have a smart meter need to do is get these answers, in writing, from their energy company. What matters is what your individual energy company intends to do when you outright refuse to have a smart meter. Once you have their intention in writing you can decide your next steps.  

Do the energy companies really want to back people into a corner so that their only way out is to be disconnected from the National Grid?  Maybe they do. Maybe not. Get  your energy companies intentions in writing before making any decisions. 

What an odd suggestion.  

There's no point going off half-cocked until you know exactly what the intention of the energy companies are. They may well just say 'no worries - we can find a way to let you keep your old meter (or a like-for-like swap)'. They're under pressure to get as many people onto smart meters as possible so of course they'll try it on. But if you make your position clear - in writing - you may well find that they consider forcing the issue to be more bother than it's worth. 

Once you know EXACTLY what their position is you can make an informed decision as to what to do next. 

People refusing smart meters are not making informed decisions. People can subscribe to conspiracy theories if they want, but that should have no impact on national infrastructure, nor should those people be pandered to.

Energy companies may or may not agree with you.

If a individual (for whatever reason - they don't need to explain their reasoning if they don't want to) is certain that they don't want a Smart Meter installed on their property then their first step is to find out for certain (in writing) what the position of their energy company is.

If the energy company agree with you, then they can work out their next steps from there. e.g. legal action, media, MP, disconnecting from the National Grid. Or perhaps even just 'sucking it up'.

If the energy company are happy to accommodate people that don't want smart meters then a simple letter would have saved  a whole lot of grief and hassle. 

"My energy supplier is complying with the terms of their licence" seems like a very odd complaint to try going to court, the media, or an MP about.

"Old lady disconnected from the National Grid freezes to death" is EXACTLY the kind of headline that the media love. It's certainly not something any MP what's happening in their constituency. 

Legal rulings are challenged all the time.

There is a whole issue of ethics surrounding whether it's appropriate that big, private, profit making corporations (that own the energy companies) are gate keepers to the National Grid.

But regardless - it's irrelevant what random people on a discussion forum think about rights and wrongs surrounding this. Only the OP knows how strongly he feels about this and how far he's prepared to go to fight his corner. 

Bottom line is, if you want to challenge something the starting point is to get things in writing - so that you know for sure what you're up against. Often that letter will lead to a resolution without any grief or hassle. 

That is indeed the sort of headline that your oft-quoted Daily Fail and similar rags love - a bit of hyperbole is a tried and tested click bait method for sure. Of course, “elderly lady hospitalised with hypothermia after being mislead by conspiracy theorists to the point where she decided to disconnect herself from the National Grid” is less newsworthy for those types of media outlet - for several reasons. Firstly that conspiracy theories tend to be their bread and butter, and secondly that it would be the truth - and the truth often gains less interest than a sensationalised half-story. 

In this instance, getting things in writing is very straightforward and requires no effort or cost - Sparky gave the detail of the relevant source of information earlier in the thread I believe. 

[Deleted User]

EssexHebridean said:. 

In this instance, getting things in writing is very straightforward and requires no effort or cost - Sparky gave the detail of the relevant source of information earlier in the thread I believe. 

Getting the information doesn't seem to be the important bit though, as you say, it's everywhere.  Legislation, OFGEM, citizens advice, MSE, the suppliers websites, the smart metering industry groups...

What appears to be important is trying to get a supplier to mess about in the hopes that they will (at least temporarily) give up.

People are right, this thread has got way too distracted, at least in part through my continuous replies - so apologies for that - I just don't want to see misinformation stand that would confuse or mislead other readers.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] said:

EssexHebridean said:. 

In this instance, getting things in writing is very straightforward and requires no effort or cost - Sparky gave the detail of the relevant source of information earlier in the thread I believe. 

Getting the information doesn't seem to be the important bit though, as you say, it's everywhere.  Legislation, OFGEM, citizens advice, MSE, the suppliers websites, the smart metering industry groups...

What appears to be important is trying to get a supplier to mess about in the hopes that they will (at least temporarily) give up.

People are right, this thread has got way too distracted, at least in part through my continuous replies - so apologies for that - I just don't want to see misinformation stand that would confuse or mislead other readers.

It's widely published (Still) that people have a legal right to refuse a smart meter.

Yes, the small print that most haven't yet noticed says 'unless your meter reaches end of life'

The even smaller print specifies that a perfectly functioning meter that works but has no current certification counts as having reached it's end of life

It's also published that some energy companies will fit an old-style meter if possible. Others might disable the 'smart' features. It might be possible for you to get your own meter and have it installed at your expense. 

Until you write to your energy company to find out EXACTLY what their policy is and what their procedures would be  someone outright refused a smart meter you're not in a position to make an informed decision. 

So, that's my recommendation to the person asking how best to handle the energy company when refusing a smart meter. Just be honest and open and get everything in writing so you know what you're dealing with. The energy company might pleasantly surprise you. If you're not interested in any of the features that the Smart Meter makes available to you then quite possibly the energy company won't care what kind of meter you have. They have gov quotas to hit, but there are plenty of people in a queue desperately waiting for a smart meter so it's very possible they won't want to pick fights with good, prompt paying customers that just want an old style meter and to be left alone. 

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] said:

The carrot hasn't been working, so they're moving to the stick).

If you are talking about replacing end-of-life meters with a smart meter, it was a pragmatic solution to a growing problem. 

In 2019 when we had a lot more suppliers than we have today, many of the smaller suppliers were waiting for SMETS2 before they started their rollout programmes.  They never invested in analogue meters as they had no obligation to do so: their default position for new installations and end-of-life replacements was SMETS2. BEIS accepted that this was the case.

That said, it really is time that moderators shut down this thread which, yet again, has become focussed on countering one person’s anti-smart meter views.

Which again is a good reason to write to your energy company and clarify their position on this.

It's very possible that they have a supply of anologue meters. Or maybe they're happy for someone to get hold of one themselves.

Until you ask you don't know.

Chrysalis

Mobtr said:

If the main reason you don’t want a smart meter is because you’ve heard that companies can change you to PAYG, simple solution to that is pay your bills & it won’t happen. I really don’t understand all this fuss about smart meters, mine has save me a fortune 

Pretty much this, and I also dont believe they rush into PAYG either, I had a disputed bill with Octopus a 4 figure sum for several months and my smart meter was credit mode the entire time and still is today (that balance long sorted out now though).

Like yourself its been saving me a noticeable sum of money. Not only on the TOU tariff but also that my old dumb meter wasnt accurate.

Northern_Wanderer

Glass1970 said:

Hi all,
We're on that dreaded THTC tariff no-one knows about and I know time is running out and SSE will be wanting to change us over and I suspect they will use the opportunity to force a smart meter on us.
I don't really fancy one because of what I've heard about energy companies all to readily switching them into pre-payment modes.
I know I'll be told I'll be getting a new meter soon but I'd prefer a non-smart meter.
Does anyone know if these still exist or are they all smart meters now. And if so I think I'll need to quote the rule book to them so they don't force a smart meter on us. Can anyone tell me what I should say?
Thanks.

I personally think you should be in a discussion with SSE about what will happen to your heating system when the radio switch gets turned off - what tarriffs are they going to be able to offer you, what work will need to be done to your wiring/ meters, who is going to pay for that and will your THTC system work the same as what it does now getting boosted three times day. There will have to be some way to switch the heaters on and off at timed periods. I think the smart meter issue is the least of your worries.