Reasons to give for refusing a smart meter

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] said:

Deleted_User said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Deleted_User said:

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Glass1970 said:

Hi all,
We're on that dreaded THTC tariff no-one knows about and I know time is running out and SSE will be wanting to change us over and I suspect they will use the opportunity to force a smart meter on us.
I don't really fancy one because of what I've heard about energy companies all to readily switching them into pre-payment modes.
I know I'll be told I'll be getting a new meter soon but I'd prefer a non-smart meter.
Does anyone know if these still exist or are they all smart meters now. And if so I think I'll need to quote the rule book to them so they don't force a smart meter on us. Can anyone tell me what I should say?
Thanks.

If they truly do have the legal right to install a smart meter against your will, and the will to exercise that right then there's little you can do - short of going off-grid.

Most people don't have the cash to test this in the courts. So quite frankly - the energy companies will be aware that they can coerce people into giving permission for this. Lets just say they have a vested interest in letting people believe that they have legal rights when really they don't. 

I think the best thing to do is write to them (recorded delivery), tell them you do not want a smart meter and ask them to tell you what the process will be if you don't give your permission. Ask them what the process will be (and who will cover the costs) if you refuse a smart meter and instead instruct them to move their faulty equipment from your home. Ask them to confirm that the only way to avoid having a smart meter (that you categorically do not want for your own personal reasons) is to be disconnected from the National Grid. 

Get them to put it all in writing. They won't be so keen to lie or mislead you in writing so ask very specific questions. 

It's section 39 of the electricity supply standard licence conditions (IIRC).

What those adamant that they won't have a smart meter need to do is get these answers, in writing, from their energy company. What matters is what your individual energy company intends to do when you outright refuse to have a smart meter. Once you have their intention in writing you can decide your next steps.  

Do the energy companies really want to back people into a corner so that their only way out is to be disconnected from the National Grid?  Maybe they do. Maybe not. Get  your energy companies intentions in writing before making any decisions. 

What an odd suggestion.  

There's no point going off half-cocked until you know exactly what the intention of the energy companies are. They may well just say 'no worries - we can find a way to let you keep your old meter (or a like-for-like swap)'. They're under pressure to get as many people onto smart meters as possible so of course they'll try it on. But if you make your position clear - in writing - you may well find that they consider forcing the issue to be more bother than it's worth. 

Once you know EXACTLY what their position is you can make an informed decision as to what to do next. 

People refusing smart meters are not making informed decisions. People can subscribe to conspiracy theories if they want, but that should have no impact on national infrastructure, nor should those people be pandered to.

Energy companies may or may not agree with you.

If a individual (for whatever reason - they don't need to explain their reasoning if they don't want to) is certain that they don't want a Smart Meter installed on their property then their first step is to find out for certain (in writing) what the position of their energy company is.

If the energy company agree with you, then they can work out their next steps from there. e.g. legal action, media, MP, disconnecting from the National Grid. Or perhaps even just 'sucking it up'.

If the energy company are happy to accommodate people that don't want smart meters then a simple letter would have saved  a whole lot of grief and hassle. 

"My energy supplier is complying with the terms of their licence" seems like a very odd complaint to try going to court, the media, or an MP about.

"Old lady disconnected from the National Grid freezes to death" is EXACTLY the kind of headline that the media love. It's certainly not something any MP what's happening in their constituency. 

Legal rulings are challenged all the time.

There is a whole issue of ethics surrounding whether it's appropriate that big, private, profit making corporations (that own the energy companies) are gate keepers to the National Grid.

But regardless - it's irrelevant what random people on a discussion forum think about rights and wrongs surrounding this. Only the OP knows how strongly he feels about this and how far he's prepared to go to fight his corner. 

Bottom line is, if you want to challenge something the starting point is to get things in writing - so that you know for sure what you're up against. Often that letter will lead to a resolution without any grief or hassle. 

[Deleted User]

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

Glass1970 said:

Hi all,
We're on that dreaded THTC tariff no-one knows about and I know time is running out and SSE will be wanting to change us over and I suspect they will use the opportunity to force a smart meter on us.
I don't really fancy one because of what I've heard about energy companies all to readily switching them into pre-payment modes.
I know I'll be told I'll be getting a new meter soon but I'd prefer a non-smart meter.
Does anyone know if these still exist or are they all smart meters now. And if so I think I'll need to quote the rule book to them so they don't force a smart meter on us. Can anyone tell me what I should say?
Thanks.

If they truly do have the legal right to install a smart meter against your will, and the will to exercise that right then there's little you can do - short of going off-grid.

Most people don't have the cash to test this in the courts. So quite frankly - the energy companies will be aware that they can coerce people into giving permission for this. Lets just say they have a vested interest in letting people believe that they have legal rights when really they don't. 

I think the best thing to do is write to them (recorded delivery), tell them you do not want a smart meter and ask them to tell you what the process will be if you don't give your permission. Ask them what the process will be (and who will cover the costs) if you refuse a smart meter and instead instruct them to move their faulty equipment from your home. Ask them to confirm that the only way to avoid having a smart meter (that you categorically do not want for your own personal reasons) is to be disconnected from the National Grid. 

Get them to put it all in writing. They won't be so keen to lie or mislead you in writing so ask very specific questions. 

It's section 39 of the electricity supply standard licence conditions (IIRC).

What those adamant that they won't have a smart meter need to do is get these answers, in writing, from their energy company. What matters is what your individual energy company intends to do when you outright refuse to have a smart meter. Once you have their intention in writing you can decide your next steps.  

Do the energy companies really want to back people into a corner so that their only way out is to be disconnected from the National Grid?  Maybe they do. Maybe not. Get  your energy companies intentions in writing before making any decisions. 

What an odd suggestion.  

There's no point going off half-cocked until you know exactly what the intention of the energy companies are. They may well just say 'no worries - we can find a way to let you keep your old meter (or a like-for-like swap)'. They're under pressure to get as many people onto smart meters as possible so of course they'll try it on. But if you make your position clear - in writing - you may well find that they consider forcing the issue to be more bother than it's worth. 

Once you know EXACTLY what their position is you can make an informed decision as to what to do next. 

People refusing smart meters are not making informed decisions. People can subscribe to conspiracy theories if they want, but that should have no impact on national infrastructure, nor should those people be pandered to.

Energy companies may or may not agree with you.

If a individual (for whatever reason - they don't need to explain their reasoning if they don't want to) is certain that they don't want a Smart Meter installed on their property then their first step is to find out for certain (in writing) what the position of their energy company is.

If the energy company agree with you, then they can work out their next steps from there. e.g. legal action, media, MP, disconnecting from the National Grid. Or perhaps even just 'sucking it up'.

If the energy company are happy to accommodate people that don't want smart meters then a simple letter would have saved  a whole lot of grief and hassle. 

"My energy supplier is complying with the terms of their licence" seems like a very odd complaint to try going to court, the media, or an MP about.

"Old lady disconnected from the National Grid freezes to death" is EXACTLY the kind of headline that the media love. It's certainly not something any MP what's happening in their constituency. 

Ah, so we want to deliberately cause someone harm now just so a group of conspiracy theorists can stick it to the system and have the rules changed so their way is acceptable?

As the funny man once said, "well that escalated quickly".

[Deleted User]

No. The point is that there is EXTREME reluctance to disconnect people from the grid even when they run up huge debts and refuse to pay bills. For the very reasons I have outlined.

So one would presume that they would be even more reluctant to disconnect people (or cause them to self-disconnect) that always pay their bills on time and simply refuse point blank to have a smart meter on their property. 

But as I say, the first step is to find out what the intentions of your particular energy company are. There may well be a satisfactory resolution to this. 

[Deleted User]

Deleted_User said:

Deleted_User said:

No. The point is that there is EXTREME reluctance to disconnect people from the grid even when they run up huge debts and refuse to pay bills. For the very reasons I have outlined.

So one would presume that they would be even more reluctant to disconnect people (or cause them to self-disconnect) that always pay their bills on time and simply refuse point blank to have a smart meter on their property. 

But as I say, the first step is to find out what the intentions of your particular energy company are. There may well be a satisfactory resolution to this. 

The satisfactory, legal, and socially moral resolution is that a smart meter gets fitted and the tin-foil hats go back in the cupboard for the next crusade.

"I don't want the world to work like that" is nothing more than childish and selfish ranting.

Which is why none of us should stamp our feet and demand the world works a certain way.

What we can do is write to the companies providing services that we pay to consume, and make our case. Maybe the energy companies will be able to provide customer satisfaction. If not, and if a lot of customers are dissatisfied - politicians, campaigners etc will need to put their thinking caps on and ensure that there are alternative options available to people. 

SAC2334

Deleted_User said:

No. The point is that there is EXTREME reluctance to disconnect people from the grid even when they run up huge debts and refuse to pay bills. For the very reasons I have outlined.

So one would presume that they would be even more reluctant to disconnect people (or cause them to self-disconnect) that always pay their bills on time and simply refuse point blank to have a smart meter on their property. 

But as I say, the first step is to find out what the intentions of your particular energy company are. There may well be a satisfactory resolution to this. 

You are correct .suppliers have a strong reluctance to disconnect .Its so rare that in 20 years meter reading I have only seen a few disconnects .

British Gas Revenue Protection told me that they would only consider a disconnect or a prosecution if they were caught 3 times bypassing meters . 

We had one house who would not accept any meter readers in their property and even after 12 years British Gas were not forcing entry despite this occupant breaking all the rules about meter safety checks  . BG had checked their payments and accepted them as normal for a three bed semi so were happy not to get too heavy. 

The exact same thing would happen with those who refused a smart meter .So long as there were  normal payments being made for the size of the property . There is little  chance suppliers are going to  to force fit smart meters even after the meters reach their normal life span of the meters .

I know areas in my home town where bypassing meters is so common with also many cannabis farms in operation . This is happening all over the UK .Their total usage will be registering as  the bare minimum with just  standing charges being owed with  most of them on old style prepayment meters but they will be using as much energy as they want with both gas and electricity  .

So do you think its fair scarter to force fit smart prepayment meters or do you think they should be allowed to carry on bypassing and getting free energy .
 The vast majority of people who will not accept smart meters  IMO are bypassing their meters and want to continue this free energy bonanza for as long as possible .

[Deleted User]

So do you think its fair scarter to force fit smart prepayment meters or do you think they should be allowed to carry on bypassing and getting free energy .
 The vast majority of people who will not accept smart meters  IMO are bypassing their meters and want to continue this free energy bonanza for as long as possible .

I'm not sure what the answer is with regards to criminals that steal from energy companies. The reason for the reluctance to disconnect people is because in the modern times, disconnecting someone from the grid is essentially a death sentence. We no longer have open fires, coal deliveries etc. The energy companies have a monopoly on basic services needed to stay alive.

We don't have the death penalty in the UK. So certainly someone shouldn't be 'sentenced to death' (they'll freeze without power) without a judge and jury finding them guilty.

So really the issue you're talking about is a failure (police?) to prosecute criminals?

The fact that you believe the majority not accepting smart meters are criminals is possibly one of the (many) reasons why so many refuse point blank to have them in their homes. The fiasco over the innocent Post Office workers that ended up in prison (with at least one committing suicide) sticks in my mind. This was due to the failure of Post Office management to believe that their software could be wrong. I'm quite sure they wouldn't have knowingly sent all those innocent people to prison! 

One of the problems with Smart Meters is they make it easier for energy companies to switch people to pre-payment or disconnect them remotely. I don't want fallible human beings (with their prejudices) to have more power. That includes the power to disconnect someone they BELIEVE to be a criminal, someone they BELIEVE to be behind on their bills, or just a mistake made by a staff member with a hangover. Or even a computer glitch. 

A lot of law abiding people that ALWAYS pay bills on time simply don't trust a) software (which is invariably buggy) and b) staff members/management that have blind faith in their software ('computer says no') and normal human prejudice that could lead them to label an innocent person as a criminal that deserves to be cut off/switched to pre-payment.

I don't want individuals, corporations or even police etc to have more powers - the ability to inflict harm on people without due process. 

I hear what you're saying and I have sympathy for that problem. But how far would you take that reasoning? Always people want more power and control to stop criminals, but throughout history we see that power and control can be abused resulting in innocent people suffering. 

I'll end  by going back to the underlying problem here. Access to the National Grid is needed to survive. Whilst I believe that criminals should be prosecuted, I DON'T believe that energy companies and their staff (with human imperfections) should have more control over such an important resource. 

Perhaps the solution is to put more effort into finding alternatives. It wouldn't take too much to make it possible for people to choose an off-grid option. And if other options are available there will be no reluctance to disconnect criminals. 

[Deleted User]

Deleted_User said:
Access to the National Grid is needed to survive. 

 It isn't.  There are many people who are not connected to the grid and funnily enough they are still alive.

Deleted_User said:

 It wouldn't take too much to make it possible for people to choose an off-grid option.

They can.  Pull the fuse out.  Nobody is going to stop them - it's not mandatory to have a connection to the grid.

If they want to have the benefit of having a grid connection, then they play by the rules of having a grid connection.  They don't get to have all the benefits and then say "but the evil companies might spoil it, I want it my way".

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] said:

Deleted_User said:
Access to the National Grid is needed to survive. 

 It isn't.  There are many people who are not connected to the grid and funnily enough they are still alive.

Deleted_User said:

 It wouldn't take too much to make it possible for people to choose an off-grid option.

They can.  Pull the fuse out.  Nobody is going to stop them - it's not mandatory to have a connection to the grid.

If they want to have the benefit of having a grid connection, then they play by the rules of having a grid connection.  They don't get to have all the benefits and then say "but the evil companies might spoil it, I want it my way".

But as the previous poster clearly stated - they DON'T disconnect criminals from the grid.

Which is why I made the point that they are very unlikely to disconnect law abiding customers that have always paid their bills promptly. 

Yes, it's possible to get off-grid, but it's no easy task. A lot more people would be keen to do it if it was made just that bit easier. I think we still live in a world where businesses make money by providing services that customers want. If they give the law abiding customers the service that they want it would also provide a way to ensure that criminals can be cut off from the grid. If there is an affordable, viable alternative to the national grid criminals and non-bill payers can be disconnected. 

[Deleted User]

The logical continuation of "criminals get away with it" is not, to a functioning member of society, "I'll do what they are doing then".

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] said:

The logical continuation of "criminals get away with it" is not, to a functioning member of society, "I'll do what they are doing then".

I haven't suggested that people should stop paying for their electricity.

I have said that if energy companies won't/can't disconnect criminals that don't pay their bills they are not going to disconnect law abiding customers that always pay on time.

So, many on these boards have said that if someone refuses a smart meter the energy company will get a court warrant, and if necessary, turn up with police to force entry and install a meter.

I think it EXTREMELY unlikely that would happen. Not least because the customer must be given the right to tell the energy company to remove their faulty equipment from the premises. 

Which is why I think it important to write to the energy company and find out for sure what their policy is. Speculation is interesting, but the only way to know for sure what you're up against is to write to your energy company. Ask them to outline exactly what the process is if you are adamant that you will not have a smart meter in your house.