B & Q Taps fail after 2 years

born_again

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

I think the OP saying they should get a refund if the tap is discontinued was a hypothetical, i.e there can't be a hard policy on replace only as there may be situations were they can't replace.

Given OP was told they have to accept replacement with the same tap it makes sense B&Q had stock to make that replacement and thus it's not discontinued.

If the OP were told we have to replace but can't because it's discontinued this would be a different thread  

You can only go by what is written. making any sort of hypothetical assuming is out of my remit  👍

Zinger549

cymruchris said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Bradden said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said

1. If you buy on a trade account, you don't have consumer rights legislation protection.

The OP made a consumer purchase, the type of account they’ve purchased via doesn’t affect this.

How is a purchase made on a trade account considered a consumer pruchase under the law?

There are places that are obviously open to the public for consumer purchases, supermarkets, Amazon, high street stores, etc, etc.

There are places that are clearly trade only, if you have a trade account with Lego to purchase from them directly you will be a business, they will not accept your custom otherwise, they don't want every Tom, Richard and Harry buying from them as trade, the spend required alone would show you are trade only. 

These so-called "trade only" places saying well we're trade only doesn't mean consumer rights doesn't apply as what dictates whether you are a consumer or a business for a particular purchase is the purpose for which the purchase is made. 

Now you could say well if you have a Lego trade account and buy a set for yourself consumer rights would apply but the type of people Lego are dealing with won't be running to them about rights and that is the point, trade only is just that, trade references, bank references, VAT numbers, high spend expectations and a business who only wants to deal with serious trade in significant volume. 

It is the responsibility of the business to ensure they do not deal with consumers however these places that sit in the middle are happy to take anyone's money for anything rather than placing effective barriers to consumer spending. 

I've used the example of the food places on here before, if you run a business selling cakes why would Bookers let you buy sausages? Maybe you are branching out so if that's the case where is your business plan to get permission to buy meat? Now Bookers don't want to faff about with all that and fair enough but by doing business in this way they need to accept that their trade customers may make consumer purchases as well. 

Doesn't B&Q have retail checkouts and a trade counter though?

For the likes of Toolstation and Screwfix etc - you walk in buy what you want even though they say they are 'for the trade'.

If B&Q have retail checkouts for regular customers, and a trade counter with trade accounts/trade cards - isn't that different to a retailer that says they are trade - but open to anyone?

(I'm interested to know whether as they have distinctly different counters within the same shop whether what you've mentioned would still apply - or whether as they do have retail checkouts, in this case, a trade sale could be classed as a trade sale - even though it's joe bloggs off the street that's bought it)

B&Q have a Tradepoint counter in some stores and some have a separate Tradepoint entrance next to the main entrance. I assume you'd need a trade card to use these. I know in some places like Jewsons and Euro Car Parts they ask when your paying if you have an account (trade).

Diamandis

I know lunatic seems pretty sure about this but I don't know if there's any case law to back up that if you present yourself as a business customer falsely you would still be entitled to normal comsumer rights. I'd be interested in the source of this information. 

cymruchris

Zinger549 said:

cymruchris said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Bradden said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said

1. If you buy on a trade account, you don't have consumer rights legislation protection.

The OP made a consumer purchase, the type of account they’ve purchased via doesn’t affect this.

How is a purchase made on a trade account considered a consumer pruchase under the law?

There are places that are obviously open to the public for consumer purchases, supermarkets, Amazon, high street stores, etc, etc.

There are places that are clearly trade only, if you have a trade account with Lego to purchase from them directly you will be a business, they will not accept your custom otherwise, they don't want every Tom, Richard and Harry buying from them as trade, the spend required alone would show you are trade only. 

These so-called "trade only" places saying well we're trade only doesn't mean consumer rights doesn't apply as what dictates whether you are a consumer or a business for a particular purchase is the purpose for which the purchase is made. 

Now you could say well if you have a Lego trade account and buy a set for yourself consumer rights would apply but the type of people Lego are dealing with won't be running to them about rights and that is the point, trade only is just that, trade references, bank references, VAT numbers, high spend expectations and a business who only wants to deal with serious trade in significant volume. 

It is the responsibility of the business to ensure they do not deal with consumers however these places that sit in the middle are happy to take anyone's money for anything rather than placing effective barriers to consumer spending. 

I've used the example of the food places on here before, if you run a business selling cakes why would Bookers let you buy sausages? Maybe you are branching out so if that's the case where is your business plan to get permission to buy meat? Now Bookers don't want to faff about with all that and fair enough but by doing business in this way they need to accept that their trade customers may make consumer purchases as well. 

Doesn't B&Q have retail checkouts and a trade counter though?

For the likes of Toolstation and Screwfix etc - you walk in buy what you want even though they say they are 'for the trade'.

If B&Q have retail checkouts for regular customers, and a trade counter with trade accounts/trade cards - isn't that different to a retailer that says they are trade - but open to anyone?

(I'm interested to know whether as they have distinctly different counters within the same shop whether what you've mentioned would still apply - or whether as they do have retail checkouts, in this case, a trade sale could be classed as a trade sale - even though it's joe bloggs off the street that's bought it)

B&Q have a Tradepoint counter in some stores and some have a separate Tradepoint entrance next to the main entrance. I assume you'd need a trade card to use these. I know in some places like Jewsons and Euro Car Parts they ask when your paying if you have an account (trade).

Yes - that's what I mean - they clearly have a segregated space for 'trade' and separate retail checkouts. The likes of ECP and Jewsons will sell to anyone - but handle both trade and retail through the same POS/area/checkout. I'm not sure that 'retail consumer law' could be applied to the B&Q tradepoint as they do have distinctively different areas/checkouts. That's what I was wondering in reply to @the_lunatic_is_in_my_head as to whether it would apply in this case.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Diamandis said:

I know lunatic seems pretty sure about this but I don't know if there's any case law to back up that if you present yourself as a business customer falsely you would still be entitled to normal comsumer rights. I'd be interested in the source of this information. 

There wasn't any mention of "present(ing) yourself as a business customer falsely", looking at the website to confirm they do indeed only require a business card to register, then they let you buy what you want so if you install fences for a living and buy a load of posts, panels, concrete that's clearly for your trade. 

The definition of a business is someone who buys or makes for the purpose of selling, the OP didn't make the purchase for that reason therefore it can't be a B2B contract in my view. 

What B&Q as Trade Point aren't doing is stopping, for example, a fence installer who has a legit trade account from also buying taps and that is where I see a problem, a photo of a business card followed by an open shop isn't an effective barrier and B&Q/Trade Point doesn't have much to show from their side the transaction was B2B. 

cymruchris said:

have distinctively different areas/checkouts

I don't know how much of a bearing the specifics of each situation would have on the chance of success should you have to go to small claims in this type of situation.

All I can say is a blanket "we're trade so no consumer rights" doesn't sit right otherwise all businesses would claim to be trade, consumer rights are deemed to automatically apply in B2C transactions thus for a business not to engage in B2C it is their responsibility to ensure it doesn't occur. 

Zinger549

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Diamandis said:

I know lunatic seems pretty sure about this but I don't know if there's any case law to back up that if you present yourself as a business customer falsely you would still be entitled to normal comsumer rights. I'd be interested in the source of this information. 

There wasn't any mention of "present(ing) yourself as a business customer falsely", looking at the website to confirm they do indeed only require a business card to register, then they let you buy what you want so if you install fences for a living and buy a load of posts, panels, concrete that's clearly for your trade. 

The definition of a business is someone who buys or makes for the purpose of selling, the OP didn't make the purchase for that reason therefore it can't be a B2B contract in my view. 

What B&Q as Trade Point aren't doing is stopping, for example, a fence installer who has a legit trade account from also buying taps and that is where I see a problem, a photo of a business card followed by an open shop isn't an effective barrier and B&Q/Trade Point doesn't have much to show from their side the transaction was B2B. 

cymruchris said:

have distinctively different areas/checkouts

I don't know how much of a bearing the specifics of each situation would have on the chance of success should you have to go to small claims in this type of situation.

All I can say is a blanket "we're trade so no consumer rights" doesn't sit right otherwise all businesses would claim to be trade, consumer rights are deemed to automatically apply in B2C transactions thus for a business not to engage in B2C it is their responsibility to ensure it doesn't occur. 

But If you need to show proof of business to get a card to shop there then does that not suggest B2B. If you want to buy from Selco you need to prove that your business owner/tradesperson to get a card.

cymruchris

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

cymruchris said:

have distinctively different areas/checkouts

I don't know how much of a bearing the specifics of each situation would have on the chance of success should you have to go to small claims in this type of situation.

All I can say is a blanket "we're trade so no consumer rights" doesn't sit right otherwise all businesses would claim to be trade, consumer rights are deemed to automatically apply in B2C transactions thus for a business not to engage in B2C it is their responsibility to ensure it doesn't occur. 

I have a feeling that because you have to show something business related - even if only a business card - to register - it's beyond the realms of wandering into Screwfix/Toolstation etc and paying over the counter for anything where you could be either trade or retail. The OP must have presented something originally to be able to buy from the trade counter, so in doing so, he or she must have said 'Yes I am/have a business' and in doing so is accepting the trade counter conditions of warranty etc.

I might go as far as saying because they differentiate their areas with different checkouts, and there is a barrier to just anyone buying from trade (albeit a small hoop to jump through), then they can apply trade conditions on any sale from the trade counter. (But as always happy to stand corrected if my thinking is off-key)

born_again

https://www.trade-point.co.uk/about

Certainly you can join as a non business. 

https://www.trade-point.co.uk/loyalty

Seems it is aimed at people spending a lot to get discount.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Zinger549 said:

But If you need to show proof of business to get a card to shop there then does that not suggest B2B. If you want to buy from Selco you need to prove that your business owner/tradesperson to get a card.

cymruchris said:

I have a feeling that because you have to show something business related - even if only a business card - to register - it's beyond the realms of wandering into Screwfix/Toolstation etc and paying over the counter for anything where you could be either trade or retail. The OP must have presented something originally to be able to buy from the trade counter, so in doing so, he or she must have said 'Yes I am/have a business' and in doing so is accepting the trade counter conditions of warranty etc.

I might go as far as saying because they differentiate their areas with different checkouts, and there is a barrier to just anyone buying from trade (albeit a small hoop to jump through), then they can apply trade conditions on any sale from the trade counter. (But as always happy to stand corrected if my thinking is off-key)

Proof of being a business/trader/whatever is what is required to join "the club", what each purchase is actually for defines whether you are acting as a consumer or a business, it's down to the trade only company to reasonably ensure any purchases made are indeed B2B. I can't really put it any fewer words  

cymruchris

born_again said:

https://www.trade-point.co.uk/about

Certainly you can join as a non business. 

https://www.trade-point.co.uk/loyalty

Seems it is aimed at people spending a lot to get discount.

They do seem to ask you to upload your proof of trade when you try to sign up online - so still don't think it's a consumer retail outlet.