Electrician will not supply certificate

DanDare999

Starshine2 said:

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:'

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

Has all the electrical work been completed and the only reason you're holding 50% is the lack of a certificate?

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

Has all the electrical work been completed and the only reason you're holding 50% is the lack of a certificate?

Yes it is and unfortunately we don’t trust him to send the certificate given the absolute mess he has left re the kitchen installation- separate issue and being dealt with.

You refer to they and him, you don't trust him, he messed up, they sent someone else round. Any chance you can clarify this?

He runs a home improvement business and he and his mate work for well known kitchen firm installing their kitchens but they are self employed. They did a pretty poor job re the installation and an inspector from the kitchen company came to inspect and wrote it all down and is getting another installer to put it right. eg water taps plumbed incorrectly, sink not installed correctly,very poor finish on walls, scratches on hob and etc so we think he is maybe trying to get his own back and cause us more stress by withholding the certificate. The other thing is do we trust that he has done the electrical work well given the kitchen mess and will he actually send the certificate  if paid.

So where does the electrician come into this? Or are you saying he does kitchen fitting as well?

Starshine2

DanDare999 said:

PStarshine2 said:

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:'

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

Has all the electrical work been completed and the only reason you're holding 50% is the lack of a certificate?

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

Has all the electrical work been completed and the only reason you're holding 50% is the lack of a certificate?

Yes it is and unfortunately we don’t trust him to send the certificate given the absolute mess he has left re the kitchen installation- separate issue and being dealt with.

You refer to they and him, you don't trust him, he messed up, they sent someone else round. Any chance you can clarify this?

He runs a home improvement business and he and his mate work for well known kitchen firm installing their kitchens but they are self employed. They did a pretty poor job re the installation and an inspector from the kitchen company came to inspect and wrote it all down and is getting another installer to put it right. eg water taps plumbed incorrectly, sink not installed correctly,very poor finish on walls, scratches on hob and etc so we think he is maybe trying to get his own back and cause us more stress by withholding the certificate. The other thing is do we trust that he has done the electrical work well given the kitchen mess and will he actually send the certificate  if paid.

So where does the electrician come into this? Or are you saying he does kitchen fitting as well?

Correct he does both. 

DanDare999

Starshine2 said:

DanDare999 said:

PStarshine2 said:

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:'

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

Has all the electrical work been completed and the only reason you're holding 50% is the lack of a certificate?

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

Has all the electrical work been completed and the only reason you're holding 50% is the lack of a certificate?

Yes it is and unfortunately we don’t trust him to send the certificate given the absolute mess he has left re the kitchen installation- separate issue and being dealt with.

You refer to they and him, you don't trust him, he messed up, they sent someone else round. Any chance you can clarify this?

He runs a home improvement business and he and his mate work for well known kitchen firm installing their kitchens but they are self employed. They did a pretty poor job re the installation and an inspector from the kitchen company came to inspect and wrote it all down and is getting another installer to put it right. eg water taps plumbed incorrectly, sink not installed correctly,very poor finish on walls, scratches on hob and etc so we think he is maybe trying to get his own back and cause us more stress by withholding the certificate. The other thing is do we trust that he has done the electrical work well given the kitchen mess and will he actually send the certificate  if paid.

So where does the electrician come into this? Or are you saying he does kitchen fitting as well?

Correct he does both. 

So the final question is, have the electrics and install been done by the same person and is it all done?

Section62

diystarter7 said:

Starshine2 said:

diystarter7 said:

OP
The electrician has an easy choice, he sends you the certificate and he will get his money. Why do people like that do this?
Sorry if I missed it, but what did he say when you rang him?

Yes you would think it was easy given he has been paid promptly by us when asked ie 50% prior to work and other small jobs. 

And exactly for that reason I'm 101% with you for holding your hard eanred cash back as his part of the contract has not been completed.

You are giving misleading advice.

There is nothing in what we've seen so far that says the certificate(s) have to be supplied prior to payment.

Generally in construction-type contracts, "completion" refers to physical works being completed.  If this contract doesn't specify the meaning of "completion" then a court is likely to interpret it in the general construction related sense, i.e. that the physical works have been completed to an acceptable standard.

Doozergirl

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

As Section62's answer in the post above this, that isn't how completion is viewed in the contraction industry.  Practical
completion is completion of the physical work, not the paperwork.  

The person who answered the phone at NAPIT (who has zero contract with or professional liability to you) agreed with you.  That is not the same as NAPIT agreeing with you.  It is more like the person on a forum that agrees with you "101%" because it's easy to empathise.  I can empathise too, but it doesn't make you right under the terms of a standard construction contract.  

NAPIT are not going to take any action until they are clear that the electrician is in the wrong.  If you pay and the electrician doesn't produce the certificate, that is is the only point at which NAPIT will know that both sides of the contract are otherwise satisfied and the electrician isn't fulfilling their legal obligation to you. 

It simply isn't worth him subsequently losing his registration and his career by refusing to issue a certificate to you.  The guy just wants paying.  

If I were your builder right now, and I knew that work was finished, I'd be issuing a letter before action and preparing the court papers.  Withholding 50% of a project for the sake of a certificate is not okay. Standard retention values in a JCT contract are 2.5% or 5% of a project's value and those need to be agreed beforehand. 

You're not standing on particularly solid ground here.   

Doozergirl

Starshine2 said:

FreeBear said:

Doozergirl said: We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual. 

Yup. The last round of works I had done here required certification plus insurance backed guarantee. Paid in full on receipt of the invoice, and the certificates arrived in the post a week or two later. If they hadn't, I would have filed a complaint with FENSA.

I guess we could complain to NAPIT with whom he is registered if we pay and he doesn’t send.

This is where you answered your own question correctly.  

Starshine2

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

As Section62's answer in the post above this, that isn't how completion is viewed in the contraction industry.  Practical
completion is completion of the physical work, not the paperwork.  

The person who answered the phone at NAPIT has zero professional liability to you agreed with you.  That is not the same as NAPIT agreeing with you.  It is more like the person on a forum that agrees with you "101%" because it's easy to empathise.  

NAPIT are not going to take any action until they are clear that the electrician is in the wrong.  If you pay and the electrician doesn't produce the certificate, that is is the only point at which NAPIT will know that both sides of the contract are otherwise satisfied and the electrician isn't fulfilling their legal obligation to you. 

It simply isn't worth losing his registration and his career by refusing to issue a certificate to you.  The guy just wants paying.  

If I were your builder right now, and I knew that work was finished, I'd be issuing a letter before action and preparing the court papers.  Withholding 50% of a project for a certificate is not okay. Standard retention values are 2.5% or 5% of a project's value and those need to be agreed beforehand. 

You're not standing on solid ground here.  

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

DanDare999 said:

PStarshine2 said:

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:'

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

Has all the electrical work been completed and the only reason you're holding 50% is the lack of a certificate?

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

KIt does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

Has all the electrical work been completed and the only reason you're holding 50% is the lack of a certificate?

Yes it is and unfortunately we don’t trust him to send the certificate given the absolute mess he has left re the kitchen installation- separate issue and being dealt with.

You refer to they and him, you don't trust him, he messed up, they sent someone else round. Any chance you can clarify this?

He runs a home improvement business and he and his mate work for well known kitchen firm installing their kitchens but they are self employed. They did a pretty poor job re the installation and an inspector from the kitchen company came to inspect and wrote it all down and is getting another installer to put it right. eg water taps plumbed incorrectly, sink not installed correctly,very poor finish on walls, scratches on hob and etc so we think he is maybe trying to get his own back and cause us more stress by withholding the certificate. The other thing is do we trust that he has done the electrical work well given the kitchen mess and will he actually send the certificate  if paid.

So where does the electrician come into this? Or are you saying he does kitchen fitting as well?

Correct he does both. 

So the final question is, have the electrics and install been done by the same person and is it all done?

It is complete and done by said installer/ electrician. When we asked for certificate so that we could settle his bill he declined to send until we pay him the other 50% Given the mess he made doing the kitchen we do wonder how well he’s done the electrics. Nothing major but certificate required and our feeling is his work s no totally complete until he sends certificate.

You need to read the whole thread properly you are totally misunderstanding the issue.

Doozergirl

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

As Section62's answer in the post above this, that isn't how completion is viewed in the contraction industry.  Practical
completion is completion of the physical work, not the paperwork.  

The person who answered the phone at NAPIT has zero professional liability to you agreed with you.  That is not the same as NAPIT agreeing with you.  It is more like the person on a forum that agrees with you "101%" because it's easy to empathise.  

NAPIT are not going to take any action until they are clear that the electrician is in the wrong.  If you pay and the electrician doesn't produce the certificate, that is is the only point at which NAPIT will know that both sides of the contract are otherwise satisfied and the electrician isn't fulfilling their legal obligation to you. 

It simply isn't worth losing his registration and his career by refusing to issue a certificate to you.  The guy just wants paying.  

If I were your builder right now, and I knew that work was finished, I'd be issuing a letter before action and preparing the court papers.  Withholding 50% of a project for a certificate is not okay. Standard retention values are 2.5% or 5% of a project's value and those need to be agreed beforehand. 

You're not standing on solid ground here.  

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

DanDare999 said:

PStarshine2 said:

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:'

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

It does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

Has all the electrical work been completed and the only reason you're holding 50% is the lack of a certificate?

DanDare999 said:

Starshine2 said:

Doozergirl said:

Starshine2 said:

The work has been completed that’s the issue. He will not provide the certificate until we pay his other 50% as far as we are concerned his work is not complete until certificate has been issued. He’s holding us to ransom.

Goes both ways.  If you're thinking about it that way you're also holding him to ransom. 

We issue certificates after payment.  Always have done and no one has ever taken issue with it.  It's not unusual.  

KIt does not go both ways if quote clearly states 50% before work and 50% when work completed which he has not completed without certificate. It’s a contract he has not kept to and NIPTA agree.

Has all the electrical work been completed and the only reason you're holding 50% is the lack of a certificate?

Yes it is and unfortunately we don’t trust him to send the certificate given the absolute mess he has left re the kitchen installation- separate issue and being dealt with.

You refer to they and him, you don't trust him, he messed up, they sent someone else round. Any chance you can clarify this?

He runs a home improvement business and he and his mate work for well known kitchen firm installing their kitchens but they are self employed. They did a pretty poor job re the installation and an inspector from the kitchen company came to inspect and wrote it all down and is getting another installer to put it right. eg water taps plumbed incorrectly, sink not installed correctly,very poor finish on walls, scratches on hob and etc so we think he is maybe trying to get his own back and cause us more stress by withholding the certificate. The other thing is do we trust that he has done the electrical work well given the kitchen mess and will he actually send the certificate  if paid.

So where does the electrician come into this? Or are you saying he does kitchen fitting as well?

Correct he does both. 

So the final question is, have the electrics and install been done by the same person and is it all done?

It is complete and done by said installer/ electrician. When we asked for certificate so that we could settle his bill he declined to send until we pay him the other 50% Given the mess he made doing the kitchen we do wonder how well he’s done the electrics. Nothing major but certificate required and our feeling is his work s no totally complete until he sends certificate.

You need to read the whole thread properly you are totally misunderstanding the issue.

Are you talking to me?  You're not using the quote feature correctly.  

If I'm misunderstanding it's because you haven't explained something fully.  

If work is finished, payment is due, certificate gets issued and NAPIT will take action if the contract is otherwise satisfied.  

If work isn't finished or the contract isn't with this person then we are indeed having the wrong conversation.  

HampshireH

OP you need to pay the guy and IF he then fails to provide the cert you complain to NAPIT.

You seem to be fixated on the fact he won't provide it. As above he is unlikely to jeopardize their registration.

However reading this post it sounds like you have raised various other issues and he probably thinks you're not intending to pay him due to your complaints. Especially if you are now questioning his competency altogether.

Personally I also feel you are wrong not paying. I've always received certification anywhere between a few days to a week or three after works be it electrical, building regs cert or fensa.