UC and student council tax discount

slowcars

poppy12345 said:

Although you wouldn't qualify for the disabled grant but what about other student finance? If there's a loan available to you then it will be counted as income for UC purposes, regardless of whether you take that loan or not.

Not being a student but one thing did strike me with what you have said.
If you had a credit card that allowed, you to take cash from it with say a credit limit of £11,000 would that also be treated as available income whether you took it or not? What about an overdraft would that also be taken into account even if you never used it?

peteuk

slowcars said:

poppy12345 said:

Although you wouldn't qualify for the disabled grant but what about other student finance? If there's a loan available to you then it will be counted as income for UC purposes, regardless of whether you take that loan or not.

Not being a student but one thing did strike me with what you have said.
If you had a credit card that allowed, you to take cash from it with say a credit limit of £11,000 would that also be treated as available income whether you took it or not? What about an overdraft would that also be taken into account even if you never used it?

No because a credit card or bank loan/overdraft aren’t classed as income.  Student finance is not classed as a loan as payback is dependant on future income.

Spoonie_Turtle

slowcars said:

poppy12345 said:

Although you wouldn't qualify for the disabled grant but what about other student finance? If there's a loan available to you then it will be counted as income for UC purposes, regardless of whether you take that loan or not.

Not being a student but one thing did strike me with what you have said.
If you had a credit card that allowed, you to take cash from it with say a credit limit of £11,000 would that also be treated as available income whether you took it or not? What about an overdraft would that also be taken into account even if you never used it?

No because those are not income one is expected to make use of as standard.  Student finance is specifically designed for students, that is the main government provision for them so students are expected to make use of it rather than claim benefits.
If they are then entitled to any other benefits on top of that due to certain circumstances then fair enough, but the student finance will be taken into account.

slowcars

Spoonie_Turtle said:

slowcars said:

poppy12345 said:

Although you wouldn't qualify for the disabled grant but what about other student finance? If there's a loan available to you then it will be counted as income for UC purposes, regardless of whether you take that loan or not.

Not being a student but one thing did strike me with what you have said.
If you had a credit card that allowed, you to take cash from it with say a credit limit of £11,000 would that also be treated as available income whether you took it or not? What about an overdraft would that also be taken into account even if you never used it?

No because those are not income one is expected to make use of as standard.  Student finance is specifically designed for students, that is the main government provision for them so students are expected to make use of it rather than claim benefits.
If they are then entitled to any other benefits on top of that due to certain circumstances then fair enough, but the student finance will be taken into account.

But correct me if I am wrong but are not the student loans repayable as would be a credit card or bank overdraft?
How can a student loan be treated as income but not a bank loan?

Spoonie_Turtle

slowcars said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

slowcars said:

poppy12345 said:

Although you wouldn't qualify for the disabled grant but what about other student finance? If there's a loan available to you then it will be counted as income for UC purposes, regardless of whether you take that loan or not.

Not being a student but one thing did strike me with what you have said.
If you had a credit card that allowed, you to take cash from it with say a credit limit of £11,000 would that also be treated as available income whether you took it or not? What about an overdraft would that also be taken into account even if you never used it?

No because those are not income one is expected to make use of as standard.  Student finance is specifically designed for students, that is the main government provision for them so students are expected to make use of it rather than claim benefits.
If they are then entitled to any other benefits on top of that due to certain circumstances then fair enough, but the student finance will be taken into account.

But correct me if I am wrong but are not the student loans repayable as would be a credit card or bank overdraft?
How can a student loan be treated as income but not a bank loan?

A bank loan, if taken out, is treated as available capital.  A *potential* bank loan, one not taken out, is ignored, because nobody is expected to take one out.  Same with any credit card debt or overdraft - which don't actually give you any money, just allow you to spend more than you have.

Student finance is taken into account because students are expected to make use of it.  It is also only repaid according to income, once earning over a certain threshold.

poppy12345

slowcars said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

slowcars said:

poppy12345 said:

Although you wouldn't qualify for the disabled grant but what about other student finance? If there's a loan available to you then it will be counted as income for UC purposes, regardless of whether you take that loan or not.

Not being a student but one thing did strike me with what you have said.
If you had a credit card that allowed, you to take cash from it with say a credit limit of £11,000 would that also be treated as available income whether you took it or not? What about an overdraft would that also be taken into account even if you never used it?

No because those are not income one is expected to make use of as standard.  Student finance is specifically designed for students, that is the main government provision for them so students are expected to make use of it rather than claim benefits.
If they are then entitled to any other benefits on top of that due to certain circumstances then fair enough, but the student finance will be taken into account.

But correct me if I am wrong but are not the student loans repayable as would be a credit card or bank overdraft?
How can a student loan be treated as income but not a bank loan?

If credit cards were taken into consideration for means tested benefits then that would be a little extreme!

NedS

slowcars said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

slowcars said:

poppy12345 said:

Although you wouldn't qualify for the disabled grant but what about other student finance? If there's a loan available to you then it will be counted as income for UC purposes, regardless of whether you take that loan or not.

Not being a student but one thing did strike me with what you have said.
If you had a credit card that allowed, you to take cash from it with say a credit limit of £11,000 would that also be treated as available income whether you took it or not? What about an overdraft would that also be taken into account even if you never used it?

No because those are not income one is expected to make use of as standard.  Student finance is specifically designed for students, that is the main government provision for them so students are expected to make use of it rather than claim benefits.
If they are then entitled to any other benefits on top of that due to certain circumstances then fair enough, but the student finance will be taken into account.

But correct me if I am wrong but are not the student loans repayable as would be a credit card or bank overdraft?
How can a student loan be treated as income but not a bank loan?

Because that's what the law says (UC Regulations 2013)

Pen2780

NedS said:

Pen2780 said:

NedS said:

Pen2780 said:

tomtom256 said:

Well you are either a full time student and qualify for a discount on your council tax, in which case, you would need to report that to UC or you aren't.

If you have a learning agreement what does that say?

Yes, that's what I thought... In which case I hope I'm not classed as a full time student!

There is a learning agreement with work rather than the Uni. It talks about having moved into a training role and there being 3 parts to successfully completing it and qualifying to apply for promotion. 1.  The Uni degree for which we get a day a week study time and need to do any additional study in our own time. 2. In house training and on the job VQ5 assessment for which we are supposed to get protected learning time. 3. Normal work starting at the level I was previously working at, then it sets out at what stages we can do more complex work.

I guess I always assumed it was classed as part time uni study and irrelevant to UC because of continuing to be employed full time and to do my normal work.

Then they started talking about this council tax discount with a letter to claim it which says I'm doing a full time degree course. I think they said it counts for council tax purposes because of the type of study and number of credits. If felt like they were saying it was a bit of a loophole that might change in future, but for now they'd checked with the council who had agreed we were all entitled and should claim.

Then I realised the implications on UC of potentially being classed as a full time student and am worried! 

UC will classify you based on what the University classify the course as. Is the course classified as a part time or full time course by the University? You can normally get this information from the course information on the University website, and it should also be contained on any course registration documents. The number of hours or time spent per week is not relevant - just how the University classify the course.

Is it The Open University or do you attend at a local University?

Its distance at the moment, but that seems to just be a change through covid. I think next year's cohort will be back to lectures face to face going in to the uni once a month. 

I can't find the course on the website, I guess as it's only done through employers, but similar ones are listed as "full time".

Clutching at straws before I withdraw, but is there any chance I could be classed as an apprentice or similar as its work based?  Thanks

Quite possibly, as I wouldn't say this is at all clear cut.

The key issue here is student funding. Are you in receipt of any student funding / loans / grants? Are you eligible to apply for and receive any student funding / loans / grants that you have not applied for? UC are not going to pay you to be a student if you are receiving student finance for that very purpose.

There is no doubt that you would remain to be eligible to claim UC even if you are a full time student - you would remain to be eligible because you have a partner and a child. The only thing in question is whether there is student finance to take into account (either if you are receiving any, or if you were entitled but never applied), which may reduce the amount of UC you receive, but this is a complex area and you would need to declare this for UC for them to perform the calculations.

If you have no student finance, and were not entitled to apply for any, then there is no issue here other than you not mentioning it to UC.

Hope that helps easy your worries?

Thanks Ned. 

Is there any way to find out more about criteria for student loans and who counts as a FT student ?

From their site if I am classed as one I would get around £9k in maintenance grant.

The problem with asking UC is if I'm classed as an apprentice or similar, then all is well and I continue as before. If I class as a FT student and knew before starting the course I would have to think hard about taking on 9k of student debt for what will likely amount to a £2k a year pay rise.

However, having started the course and knowing how brutal UC can be I darent risk asking them if I count as a student as if I do they'll immediately reduce benefits for the not yet claimed maintenance grant to a point where we couldn't afford to live.

We don't qualify for advances to ease this whilst applying for student finance as I "earn too much". 

Pen2780

And I'd also expect student finance not to be retrospective - so maybe too late to claim or only possible to claim from December. Losing 3 months potential loan. Confused! 

NedS

Pen2780 said:

NedS said:

Pen2780 said:

NedS said:

Pen2780 said:

tomtom256 said:

Well you are either a full time student and qualify for a discount on your council tax, in which case, you would need to report that to UC or you aren't.

If you have a learning agreement what does that say?

Yes, that's what I thought... In which case I hope I'm not classed as a full time student!

There is a learning agreement with work rather than the Uni. It talks about having moved into a training role and there being 3 parts to successfully completing it and qualifying to apply for promotion. 1.  The Uni degree for which we get a day a week study time and need to do any additional study in our own time. 2. In house training and on the job VQ5 assessment for which we are supposed to get protected learning time. 3. Normal work starting at the level I was previously working at, then it sets out at what stages we can do more complex work.

I guess I always assumed it was classed as part time uni study and irrelevant to UC because of continuing to be employed full time and to do my normal work.

Then they started talking about this council tax discount with a letter to claim it which says I'm doing a full time degree course. I think they said it counts for council tax purposes because of the type of study and number of credits. If felt like they were saying it was a bit of a loophole that might change in future, but for now they'd checked with the council who had agreed we were all entitled and should claim.

Then I realised the implications on UC of potentially being classed as a full time student and am worried! 

UC will classify you based on what the University classify the course as. Is the course classified as a part time or full time course by the University? You can normally get this information from the course information on the University website, and it should also be contained on any course registration documents. The number of hours or time spent per week is not relevant - just how the University classify the course.

Is it The Open University or do you attend at a local University?

Its distance at the moment, but that seems to just be a change through covid. I think next year's cohort will be back to lectures face to face going in to the uni once a month. 

I can't find the course on the website, I guess as it's only done through employers, but similar ones are listed as "full time".

Clutching at straws before I withdraw, but is there any chance I could be classed as an apprentice or similar as its work based?  Thanks

Quite possibly, as I wouldn't say this is at all clear cut.

The key issue here is student funding. Are you in receipt of any student funding / loans / grants? Are you eligible to apply for and receive any student funding / loans / grants that you have not applied for? UC are not going to pay you to be a student if you are receiving student finance for that very purpose.

There is no doubt that you would remain to be eligible to claim UC even if you are a full time student - you would remain to be eligible because you have a partner and a child. The only thing in question is whether there is student finance to take into account (either if you are receiving any, or if you were entitled but never applied), which may reduce the amount of UC you receive, but this is a complex area and you would need to declare this for UC for them to perform the calculations.

If you have no student finance, and were not entitled to apply for any, then there is no issue here other than you not mentioning it to UC.

Hope that helps easy your worries?

Thanks Ned. 

Is there any way to find out more about criteria for student loans and who counts as a FT student ?

From their site if I am classed as one I would get around £9k in maintenance grant.

Your University should be able to help advise you.