Argos watch bought but not in box; accused of stealing

powerful_Rogue

diystarter7 said:

OP
A thought, challenge them to call the cops and prove your OH stole it as you have nothing to fear and everything to gain as I would do theat if it happened to me. Though they would not, I'd tell the cops to search our house and look at everything.
What do you and others think about this recommendation?

It's awful.

How can the OP steal from themselves?

NBLondon

LetsGoMets34 said:

The box was given unsealed, but my partner didn't think anything of it at the time because nothing was construed as amiss.

I know this doesn't help in your case but if they noticed it was unsealed perhaps they could have questioned it at the time or opened it in front of the cashier which would have immediately shown the problem.   In fact, I would refuse an unsealed item from Argos on principle and any electronics from anywhere.

DanDare999

Jacob_Jones said:

DanDare999 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Report it to the police and get a crime reference?  The watch has been stolen by someone.  The police won't do anything (and rightly so) but having a crime reference number might convince Argos that your partner is serious about pursuing it.  It will also probably be something a card provider will ask for if you try a chargeback.

Why do you think the OP's partner is entitled to a crime number? If it was stolen from them then it must have taken possession of the watch.

If it's been stolen in store and before they bought the empty box then that's a matter between Argos and the police. 

Incorrect. 
Theft is a criminal matter. A crime is an offence against The King's Peace. 
If a crime has been committed, then that is a matter for the state to prosecute the offender.
The victim does not (in theory) need to persue the matter. 
What if the victim were dead? (for example). 
That's what makes it different from a civil wrong. 

Of course an action can constitute both a civil wrong and a criminal offence. 

Theft is the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intent to permanently deprive. 

If the OP's partner never had the watch how can they be deprived of it?

DanDare999

Jacob_Jones said:

THIS IS NOT LEGAL NOR FINANCIAL ADVICE: 

The OP could (in theory) take Argos to the Small Claims Court. 
Argos may fail to respond or turn up and the plaintiff gets a default win (judgement). 
I've seen similar happen before. 

Even if Argos did turn up, it would go on the balance of probabilities. 

Argos say it was in the box, the OP's partners says it wasn't. What evidence have they got to tip the balance to 51%?

user1977

DanDare999 said:

Jacob_Jones said:

THIS IS NOT LEGAL NOR FINANCIAL ADVICE: 

The OP could (in theory) take Argos to the Small Claims Court. 
Argos may fail to respond or turn up and the plaintiff gets a default win (judgement). 
I've seen similar happen before. 

Even if Argos did turn up, it would go on the balance of probabilities. 

Argos say it was in the box, the OP's partners says it wasn't. What evidence have they got to tip the balance to 51%?

The court might find their testimony more persuasive than that of Argos's evidence. Often these things come down to whom the judge considers more believable on the day.

DanDare999

Jacob_Jones said:

DanDare999 said:

Jacob_Jones said:

DanDare999 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Report it to the police and get a crime reference?  The watch has been stolen by someone.  The police won't do anything (and rightly so) but having a crime reference number might convince Argos that your partner is serious about pursuing it.  It will also probably be something a card provider will ask for if you try a chargeback.

Why do you think the OP's partner is entitled to a crime number? If it was stolen from them then it must have taken possession of the watch.

If it's been stolen in store and before they bought the empty box then that's a matter between Argos and the police. 

Incorrect. 
Theft is a criminal matter. A crime is an offence against The King's Peace. 
If a crime has been committed, then that is a matter for the state to prosecute the offender.
The victim does not (in theory) need to persue the matter. 
What if the victim were dead? (for example). 
That's what makes it different from a civil wrong. 

Of course an action can constitute both a civil wrong and a criminal offence. 

Theft is the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intent to permanently deprive. 

If the OP's partner never had the watch how can they be deprived of it?

The OP's partner has not been deprived of it. 
Presumably, Argos has been deprived of it by a person unknown. 
(Unless it's just got lost in the Argos warehouse somewhere). 

There appears to be evidence of the watch being stolen from Argos by someone unknown. 
That is a crime 'committed agaist Argos by a person unknown'. 
However, if this is a crime, it is not for Argos to prosecute. It is for the state to prosecute, as it is a criminal, rather than a civil matter. 

In theory, the police (CPS) could prosecute an employee of Argos for theft of Argos property - even if Argos decided it "did not wish to press charges". 
Because the victim of a crime doesn't actually "press charges" - the Crown does. 
The phrase is technically incorrect, but often used because the feelings of the victim of a crime are considered in the public interest test of whether or not to prosecute. 

So you agree the theft is not the concern of the OP's partner?

In fact they have no real evidence any offence of theft has taken place other than the fact they say they were given an empty box. 

born_again

TELLIT01 said:

This type of issue seems to be becoming more and more common, particularly with home delivery items.  I've seen many post from people saying that empty boxes have been received and the vendor refusing to do anything about it.  I don't think it likely that all people posting their experience are trying to scam the vendor. 

I don't know if there is any point in speaking to police on the matter.  They might give a crime number which may help in any form of chargeback attempt.

Police info will not help a chargeback. As there is not one for stolen goods.

As has been said many times. A chargeback is destined to fail, as Argos have proof of delivery. As goods (box) was picked up from the store. Clearly they have proof as Op will have given code from order.

DanDare999

user1977 said:

DanDare999 said:

Jacob_Jones said:

THIS IS NOT LEGAL NOR FINANCIAL ADVICE: 

The OP could (in theory) take Argos to the Small Claims Court. 
Argos may fail to respond or turn up and the plaintiff gets a default win (judgement). 
I've seen similar happen before. 

Even if Argos did turn up, it would go on the balance of probabilities. 

Argos say it was in the box, the OP's partners says it wasn't. What evidence have they got to tip the balance to 51%?

The court might find their testimony more persuasive than that of Argos's evidence. Often these things come down to whom the judge considers more believable on the day.

Possibly, I think they key evidence would be the unsealed box and Argos change of mind about that which may swing it. 

I would guess the evidence from Argos would be Person A, picked the package and Person B dispatched it. If both say it was sealed then without evidence of the customer taking an unsealed package and the change in story then it's most likely it left sealed. 

DanDare999

Jacob_Jones said:

DanDare999 said:

Jacob_Jones said:

DanDare999 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Report it to the police and get a crime reference?  The watch has been stolen by someone.  The police won't do anything (and rightly so) but having a crime reference number might convince Argos that your partner is serious about pursuing it.  It will also probably be something a card provider will ask for if you try a chargeback.

Why do you think the OP's partner is entitled to a crime number? If it was stolen from them then it must have taken possession of the watch.

If it's been stolen in store and before they bought the empty box then that's a matter between Argos and the police. 

Incorrect. 
Theft is a criminal matter. A crime is an offence against The King's Peace. 
If a crime has been committed, then that is a matter for the state to prosecute the offender.
The victim does not (in theory) need to persue the matter. 
What if the victim were dead? (for example). 
That's what makes it different from a civil wrong. 

Of course an action can constitute both a civil wrong and a criminal offence. 

Theft is the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intent to permanently deprive. 

If the OP's partner never had the watch how can they be deprived of it?

NOT LEGAL OR FINANCIAL ADVICE: 

The OP's partner has been deprived of £300 for an item not received. 

This is likely a civil matter between the OP's partner and Argos. 

It would only be a criminal matter between the OP's partner and Argos, in the case that the Argos employee knowingly sold the box as empty. That could be fraud / deception etc. 
The same in reverse, were the OP's partner to be dishonestly claiming the box to be empty when it wasn't. 
Even then, the OP's partner would not be committing theft, they would be committing fraud / deception. 

In reality, the police will not be interested. They will say it is a civil matter. 
The police are hardly ever interested in the case of shoplifting - which is obviously criminal. 

They're £300 down on the deal yes, but there is no evidence of dishonesty on behalf of Argos so no theft or fraud in the transaction between the two parties. 

DanDare999

Jacob_Jones said:

DanDare999 said:

Jacob_Jones said:

DanDare999 said:

Jacob_Jones said:

DanDare999 said:

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Report it to the police and get a crime reference?  The watch has been stolen by someone.  The police won't do anything (and rightly so) but having a crime reference number might convince Argos that your partner is serious about pursuing it.  It will also probably be something a card provider will ask for if you try a chargeback.

Why do you think the OP's partner is entitled to a crime number? If it was stolen from them then it must have taken possession of the watch.

If it's been stolen in store and before they bought the empty box then that's a matter between Argos and the police. 

Incorrect. 
Theft is a criminal matter. A crime is an offence against The King's Peace. 
If a crime has been committed, then that is a matter for the state to prosecute the offender.
The victim does not (in theory) need to persue the matter. 
What if the victim were dead? (for example). 
That's what makes it different from a civil wrong. 

Of course an action can constitute both a civil wrong and a criminal offence. 

Theft is the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intent to permanently deprive. 

If the OP's partner never had the watch how can they be deprived of it?

NOT LEGAL OR FINANCIAL ADVICE: 

The OP's partner has been deprived of £300 for an item not received. 

This is likely a civil matter between the OP's partner and Argos. 

It would only be a criminal matter between the OP's partner and Argos, in the case that the Argos employee knowingly sold the box as empty. That could be fraud / deception etc. 
The same in reverse, were the OP's partner to be dishonestly claiming the box to be empty when it wasn't. 
Even then, the OP's partner would not be committing theft, they would be committing fraud / deception. 

In reality, the police will not be interested. They will say it is a civil matter. 
The police are hardly ever interested in the case of shoplifting - which is obviously criminal. 

They're £300 down on the deal yes, but there is no evidence of dishonesty on behalf of Argos so no theft or fraud in the transaction between the two parties. 

On the face of it, yes. I agree. 
So far as the OP is concerned, the most likely scenario is a civil matter. 

Exactly, so I don't know why you though otherwise.