Deleted

ariarnia

Deleted_User said:

ariarnia said:

Deleted_User said:

ariarnia said:

There are so many questions and people simply aren't being given reliable information.

i disagree the information is perfectly reliable and the legal position is clear. your listing a load of things and saying they are contradictions but they arent. the actual facts are very simple. 

Which? make it clear that if an energy company says it wants to replace your meter because it's at the end of it's life you can ask them for evidence. You shouldn't just take their word for it.

So you can't assume that your meter is at end of life simply because you get a letter saying it is. 

yes you can. there is absolutely nothing stopping you from taking there word for it and having your meter replaced. you do not HAVE to take there word for it. you can ask for evidence if you want to. 

Where are all the articles clearly explaining to people how to establish whether claims that their meter is at end of life are true? 

meter certification isnt a secret. thats the whole point of it. maufacturers have to have there meters certified and the information is in the public domain. if you ask your supplier for evidence they will probably send you a link like the one spoonie already gave you showing the differnt types of meters and how long they are certified for. then you can look at your meter and the date on the seal from when it was certified. its not rocket science. if you are in doubt then you can refuse entry. as is your right. then they will take the evidence to the court to get a warrant and you will no longer be able to (legally) refuse them entry. 

You say that this would be verified before a court order is issued.
I say it should be verified before you let the energy company anywhere near your property.

if you refuse entry then the court hearing will be before the warrant is granted so will be before the energy company enter your property. so that should make you happy at least. 

We're not talking about unsafe meters when it comes to end of certified life. A meter will typically continue to work safely and accurately for many, many years after the end of it's certified life. Which is no doubt why they didn't feel the need to replace my mum's 40 year old meter which was safe and working perfectly.

you've already been given a link to the law where the goverment decided an uncertified meter is an unsafe meter and could be replaced without the homeowners permission. you have also yet to provide evidence of this 40 year old meter. for all we know its one that had a 45 year certification so wasnt due to be replaced anyway.

 The reason why this should have been the headline and NOT the small print is because the certified life of a meter is pretty short. New homes have been fitted with smart meters for a good few years now and most people are probably getting close to the end of certified life. So telling them they can legally decline a smart meter is very misleading - in practice most won't be able to.

the certified life of a meter isnt that short. the roll out of smart meters in new homes was quite slow from what ive read on here as there wasnt enough to go around and theres still a shortage so there's probably plenty of meters out there with at least 10 years on them and lots of people who activly want a smart meter and havent been able to get one yet to keep demand high. 

As I say, this can still be challenged in the courts. If a meter is working perfectly maybe the courts will rule that consumers must be given the option to have their current meter recertified. 

you claim it can be challenged. on what grounds? like i said. disagreeing with the law isnt something the court will consider an argument. courts work within the law set by the govermnet and the government want everyone to have smart meters. by the time its got to the court that ship has sailed. if you want to try that argument then you need to try it with your supplier before it gets to court. i'd be interested to see how it goes. and i expect if they agree it would cost you a LOT to get a single meter recertified privately. 

I am not overcomplicating it. I am pointing out the stark reality that people haven't been given clear information and even now most people aren't clear about the legal position.

yes you are. the information is clear and MOST people are clear about the legal position. the legal position is they dont care one way or another or actually want a smart meter and wouldn't refuse entry anyway. 

Another thing that's not been made clear. If you don't want a smart meter but the energy company say your current meter is at the end of it's life can you just tell them to decommission the old meter and leave you disconnected from the grid?

again something that's perfectly clear for anyone willing to spend even a short time on google. its the same information someone having an extension would look for. yes you can ask for your supply to be disconnected. it'll cost you money. and if you want it back again in the future it will cost you more money. the exact amount depends on where your meters are and what needs to happen to disconnect them. 

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/disconnect

That is all just you reiterating YOUR understanding of the information that's been shared in random places. 

Most people have been lulled into a false sense of security by the very heavily publicised claim that you are legally entitled to turn down an smart meter. But unless you're living in a relatively new house that isn't going to be the case.

Most people don't spend all day reading through long discussions between random people on MSE forums. Therefore they aren't privy to the little bits of obscure info that people have dug up. 

Most people I know think they can decline a smart meter - they aren't aware of the small print that will FORCE them to get one within the year.

Most people I know don't know how to verify whether what the energy company tell them about their meter being at the end of it's life is true.

Most people I know don't know what the legal position is if they would rather go off grid than allow a smart meter to be fitted.  You have made assumptions based upon what you've read about having a supply disconnected. But we're talking here about a different situation where the energy company have decommissioned your meter and are unable to replace like with like. THEY have made the decision to terminate the supply - not you.

You see - you are reading a bit on Google and making assumptions about what you think is true. That's all anyone can do. Because the energy company and the government have failed to provide clear and accurate information - they've publicised half truths and misled people.

The reason most people haven't spent hours on google trying to track down all this information is because of the widespread campaign to reassure people that they are legally entitled to refuse a smart meter. People therefore didn't think they needed to band together and seek legal advice. If those people had a semblance of trust before this will be the final nail in the coffin. 

That is all just you reiterating YOUR understanding of the information that's been shared in random places  

i don't know the people you know but in my experience the reason most people haven't spent hours on google trying to track down all this information is because most people dont care about getting a smart meter (or actually want one).

i'm not reading 'a bit on google' to know how warrants of entry work and i'm not reading google to know the court will rule based on what the law says not if someone really wants a different option and wants to twist things to try to justify it. no matter how much they beleve there arguments are good or how passionate they are. but twisting things doesn't make them unclear and like i said it's not that the information is unreliable or inaccurate or hard to find. it;s that its not saying what you want it to say.  

YES! That's all anyone can do because the usual sources that people go to for this kind of information have led people to believe that they can legally refuse a smart meter. There is no source of legal information informing us of our rights - just propaganda and half truths from government and energy companies.

Martin Lewis has stressed repeatedly in articles that people don't need to worry if they don't want a smart meter - they can legally refuse. That is a HUGE omission over an issue that is so important - one that has led people to trust his word and not spend hours on the internet doing fact checking; not consulting legal experts; not arranging protests and mass refusals to cooperate. 

I have made my decision. I am getting off grid. So I don't care what the rules say. I do care about the levels of deception surrounding this. It's a HUGE heads up to me - it takes a lot to shock me nowadays, but the government and their corporate buddies have sunk to new low levels in my eyes. As too has Martin Lewis for not drawing peoples attention to what's coming down the tracks. 

but (again) people can refuse a smart meter. if you are offered one you have the right to say no. unless its because your meter is unsafe. all very clear easy to understand and i would have thought would have been obvious to anyone who knows that electricity and gas can be dangerous. 

just like all the other times when you have a right to decide about something apart from when you don't because theres a risk of injury or death for you or others. 

complete aside from the topic but i really can't get how you think there should be more blatant information about every situation but at the same time object to the idea of monthly dds being set by an energy company because the individual should be trusted to manage there money and know best about there energy use.

anyone capable (and interested enough to bother) keeping track of there energy use and predicting accurately there bill and future use is more than capable of finding out the information about smart meters and when they can or cannot be replaced without your permission (and how to look at a seal and check against a publicly available list to see if its certificate has expired or not). 

ariarnia

Deleted_User said:

Wrong. A meter that is at end of certified life is NOT unsafe. Normally they'll be completely safe and work reliably for decades beyond certified life.

You see - you really don't understand this as well as you think. And that is because Google will not give you answers if those with the full facts haven't published the answers.

People need facts in order to manage their affairs. Energy companies aren't fit to work out DD payments because they don't have the facts. We aren't in a position to decide upon a course of action re avoiding smart meters if the full facts about the law surrounding it aren't published. 

a meter that is not certified safe is considered unsafe. like food past its use by date. is it unsafe? maybe not. but it can't be sold or given away and is treated as unsafe. it's expired. 

thats the decision made by the goverment that was made in to the law that spoonie linked you to on the other thread.

you disagree. but your disagreement does not change that suppliers can replace unsafe meters without your permission and unsafe includes ones where the certificate has expired. 

the law has been published. the information on the government site and ofgem is in quite easy to understand language. even i can understand it and i get confused by to many choices on a menu.  

willfully ignoring or denying the information that is available to you is not the same as the information not being available. 

ariarnia

Deleted_User said:

ariarnia said:

Deleted_User said:

Wrong. A meter that is at end of certified life is NOT unsafe. Normally they'll be completely safe and work reliably for decades beyond certified life.

You see - you really don't understand this as well as you think. And that is because Google will not give you answers if those with the full facts haven't published the answers.

People need facts in order to manage their affairs. Energy companies aren't fit to work out DD payments because they don't have the facts. We aren't in a position to decide upon a course of action re avoiding smart meters if the full facts about the law surrounding it aren't published. 

a meter that is not certified safe is considered unsafe. thats the decision made by the goverment that was made in to the law that spoonie linked you to on the other thread.

you disagree. but your disagreement does not change that suppliers can replace unsafe meters without your permission and unsafe includes ones where the certificate has expired. 

the law has been published. its written in quite easy to understand language. even i can understand it and i get confused by to many choices on a menu.  

willfully ignoring or denying the information that is available to you is not the same as the information not being available. 

Google is really letting you down badly!  Certification is nothing to do with safety. It's about calibration - accurately measuring usage. And until now it's been accepted that meters remain reliable for decades after the certification expires.

A little minute or two on Google will tell you that very often people challenge government decisions and laws in the courts - and win. But in order to challenge the law people first need to be aware of what it is. There has been a widespread campaign to con people into believing they can refuse a smart meter. Yes, people should have known not to trust a word that they're told - but people are being bombarded with one crisis after another - many are reeling at being forced to pay DD payments that will bankrupt them DESPITE the fact that they are no longer using energy they are being forced to pay for.

And while they struggle to feed their kids the energy companies slowly but surely pick them off, threatening them with court warrants if they resist. 

In this country we are ruled by consent. Not tyranny. 

are you a freeman of the land by any chance? 

QrizB

All this thread needs now to complete my bingo card is a "wake up sheeple!":

(xkcd 1013.)

GingerTim

QrizB said:

All this thread needs now to complete my bingo card is a "wake up sheeple!":

(xkcd 1013.)

There is *always* an xkcd.

ariarnia

ok i give up. @QrizB wins the thread. 

Spoonie_Turtle

Hats off to you arinaria for your patience! 
(I was out but have already made use of the ignore button anyway )

McKneff

Deleted_User said:

jimjames said:

Don't cancel the DD, you'll end up paying more. Far better to have pay on bill but using DD.

Try requesting via their chat feature, that's how mine was setup

I'm not having much luck getting through to them. I finally managed to get through on whatsap, but they say they're busy and will try to get back to me within 36 hours. The chat feature never has anyone available to help. 

From what I've seen on their social media etc they are in a complete mess and can't cope with all the complaints. 

Try this number
0333 2005100
FREE IN MY MOBILE PHONE PLAN BUT GETS THROUGH PRETTY QUICK