Park home owner - energy overcharged now court?

BooJewels

Just out of curiosity, how many homes are there in the park?

I can sort of get why there might be need to make an 'admin' charge, if there are a lot and it would take some time to walk around to do them all - if the owner had to pay someone to do this extra task.  But if there are a lot, 20 quid each would seem excessive.

ariarnia

smellymel74 said:

ariarnia said:

if it does go to small claims then thats not a bad thing. they're the normal magistrate court just online for low amounts of money. so they have all the same legal information and knowledge as the big courts. 

what you would need to do is put your case together. that means keep all letters from your park owner. copies of your contract. copies of what you think are the relevent rulings from the tribunal. and any other paperwork that you think makes your case. 

the landlord will have to submit his case and evidence first. you will get to see it. then you have time to respond (pay attention to deadlines) and i'm sure there are people on here who can help (or that helpline youve been given seems great). i dont think you have to attend anywhere in person its all online and post.

you just need to be aware that you can't claim for costs so if you do go for legal advice and have to pay you can't get that back if you win. but you shouldn't need it as its all set up to be as easy as possible for normal people to represent themselves. 

keep us updated? 

Thank you Ariania - that’s very helpful and simply explained. It all feels quite scary as I’ve never been in trouble for anything really so it’s nice to have it explained in a way that makes it less frightening my son and daughter have been a great help so far so I’m lucky really.if it happens it happens and we’ll do our best to deal with it. I’ll certainly update if it might help someone - we found it v difficult to find people who know this area of law and the legal jargon can make it seem so complex 

i dont know how much help i can be but if theres any language you dont know i'm sure someone on here can help.

our experience was quite petty really. we took a local artist to court after he borrowed some of our camping equiptment for a residential course he wanted to do then returned it broken. we just wanted the cash to get replacements so it was quite simple that we provided proof of what they had cost and how long we had had them and the price of like for like new items. he claimed they were like that when he got it but we had text messages from him saying they were great and afterwards sorry about the damage. he just didn't know that the court would accept text messages as proof he was lying.  we had to phone them up to ask how we could send in the evidence (it was a bit technical as we had to download them to a computer but they talked us through it all) 

smellymel74

Deleted_User said:

smellymel74 said:

Deleted_User said:

smellymel74 said:

pochase said:

It does not seem that the meter reading charge in itself is illegal if you look at Ofgem guidelines.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2005/10/11782-resaleupdateoct05_3.pdf

It seem the landlord is able to recover administration costs, it is just questionable how high this can be.

I’m not saying the meter reading charge in and of itself is necessarily unlawful; that depends on your written agreement and what you’re already being charged for on your bill as far as I can tell. In my case I’m 95% sure it is though as site owners cannot profit from the re-selling and he meter reading charge means he is. I pay for meter reading and billing as part of my pitch fee already. And I pay for the units I use and all other allowable charges (standing charge but not climate change levy) in my monthly bill. The site owner is on a fixed contract until mid 2023 so there have been no new charges that he’s paying. He’s just decided to start charging us £20 extra!

No - the OFGEM guidelines say that the meter reading charge does not mean he is profiting from reselling.  It specifically says that he can recover administrative costs such as that separately from the cost of the fuel, and either include them in something like a pitch fee or charge for them individually.

All that has changed from the energy resale perspective is that he was previously choosing not to individually recover these costs and now he is.

Whether the written agreement allows him to introduce or modify an existing service charge (I say modify because he may argue "I had a £0 charge and now it is a £20 charge") is a different matter, but this is not covered by the rules about energy resale.

Ok I see the distinction. In my circumstances, the meter reading charge does appear to be unlawful. If bills are currently covering what the site owner pays including admin charges (they are) then if the site owner starts charging extra, when we’re in a fixed contract and costs haven’t increased, then that’s almost certainly profit. That appears to be what’s happening here. We’ve been paying for our units used plus all the additional charges that are lawful, including a ‘metering charge’ as part of our monthly bills. This £20 charge isn’t part of these additional charges; this is a new charge and doesn’t cover any extra costs arising for the site owner.

Didn’t the upper tier and the first tier tribunals rule that so long as residents are covering what the site owner pays for usage and additional fees, site owners cannot charge extra for things like reading a meter or providing a bill *unless* the written agreement allows this as it’s assumed to be included in the pitch fee? See: https://www.ibblaw.co.uk/insights/blog/can-residential-park-owners-charge-electricity-administration-charges

My agreement makes no allowance for any such extra fee, hence I think it’s unlawful. I’m not a legal expert though but I have sought some advice. 

Hes also been charging an extra 3-5p per KWH of units used and only charging the more expensive daytime rate per unit (we have day/night rates on the contract) for a year and has ignored requests to refund overpayments so there are several issues and profiting seems to be at the heart of them all. 

That first part - again no.  I'll repeat it.  Admin charges are not included in the consideration of making profit on energy resale.  The park homes tribunal decisions might cover your situation - but it is not anything to do with the resale rules.

That second part - a much bigger issue.  This is in direct contravention of the resale rules.  The owner cannot charge you more than they pay (including standing charge). If you have multi-rate metering (day and night measurements separately) then the owner must respect those readings.  If you have only single rate metering, the owner must "use his reasonable endeavours to estimate what proportion of the total bill each tenant should pay".  Assuming everything at day and nothing at night is not "reasonable endeavours".

I'd be much more concerned about that second obvious contravention of the law rather than trying to argue against a £20 service charge - although I realise that the £20 is more urgent in your mind at the moment given the threat of court.

Ok I think I understand now - it’s so complicated! What I was meaning was that the tribunal has previously ruled admin charges cannot be added on unless the written agreement allows for this, which mine does not. That’s the linked ruling. Not re-selling regulations but the overall point about the site owner not being allowed to do it in my case still seems to be accurate I think. 

You’re right and I am very concerned about being overcharged; I was just clearer in my head about that and know it can be dealt with by the tribunal so that wasn’t my original query. It was the small claims court threat from the site owner that threw me as I don’t understand that process and I’m concerned the magistrates wouldn’t know the specifics of park home law like the tribunal would.

The site owner has ignored 3 requests from one resident’s solicitor to provide evidence of the bills and an explanation of the charges (I have thankfully got copies of site bills for the past 2 years). It’s cheeky then that he’d threaten to take me (and other residents) to court over non-payment of a very likely unlawful charge. It seems he can though so I’ll just have to see if he does as threatened and make my case.

Thanks for the clarity 

smellymel74

BooJewels said:

Just out of curiosity, how many homes are there in the park?

I can sort of get why there might be need to make an 'admin' charge, if there are a lot and it would take some time to walk around to do them all - if the owner had to pay someone to do this extra task.  But if there are a lot, 20 quid each would seem excessive.

There’s 62 homes in the park. So yes, £20 each per month is certainly excessive. I don’t think the site owner knows much about park home law so he just does what he wants then the Stan court action or waits for a resident to take him on. Most of the time people let it drop but this is costing so much money (a new £20/month fee and overcharging units) that more people seem willing to push it this time 🤞🏻

smellymel74

ariarnia said:

smellymel74 said:

ariarnia said:

if it does go to small claims then thats not a bad thing. they're the normal magistrate court just online for low amounts of money. so they have all the same legal information and knowledge as the big courts. 

what you would need to do is put your case together. that means keep all letters from your park owner. copies of your contract. copies of what you think are the relevent rulings from the tribunal. and any other paperwork that you think makes your case. 

the landlord will have to submit his case and evidence first. you will get to see it. then you have time to respond (pay attention to deadlines) and i'm sure there are people on here who can help (or that helpline youve been given seems great). i dont think you have to attend anywhere in person its all online and post.

you just need to be aware that you can't claim for costs so if you do go for legal advice and have to pay you can't get that back if you win. but you shouldn't need it as its all set up to be as easy as possible for normal people to represent themselves. 

keep us updated? 

Thank you Ariania - that’s very helpful and simply explained. It all feels quite scary as I’ve never been in trouble for anything really so it’s nice to have it explained in a way that makes it less frightening my son and daughter have been a great help so far so I’m lucky really.if it happens it happens and we’ll do our best to deal with it. I’ll certainly update if it might help someone - we found it v difficult to find people who know this area of law and the legal jargon can make it seem so complex 

i dont know how much help i can be but if theres any language you dont know i'm sure someone on here can help.

our experience was quite petty really. we took a local artist to court after he borrowed some of our camping equiptment for a residential course he wanted to do then returned it broken. we just wanted the cash to get replacements so it was quite simple that we provided proof of what they had cost and how long we had had them and the price of like for like new items. he claimed they were like that when he got it but we had text messages from him saying they were great and afterwards sorry about the damage. he just didn't know that the court would accept text messages as proof he was lying.  we had to phone them up to ask how we could send in the evidence (it was a bit technical as we had to download them to a computer but they talked us through it all) 

That’s so helpful - makes the process seem far less scary than I was imagining so thank you. I’m 75 and message boards and social media are about my limit so I’m lucky to have people who can help me with the online parts at home and expert help and support on here! Thank you  

[Deleted User]

smellymel74 said:

Deleted_User said:

smellymel74 said:

Deleted_User said:

smellymel74 said:

pochase said:

It does not seem that the meter reading charge in itself is illegal if you look at Ofgem guidelines.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2005/10/11782-resaleupdateoct05_3.pdf

It seem the landlord is able to recover administration costs, it is just questionable how high this can be.

I’m not saying the meter reading charge in and of itself is necessarily unlawful; that depends on your written agreement and what you’re already being charged for on your bill as far as I can tell. In my case I’m 95% sure it is though as site owners cannot profit from the re-selling and he meter reading charge means he is. I pay for meter reading and billing as part of my pitch fee already. And I pay for the units I use and all other allowable charges (standing charge but not climate change levy) in my monthly bill. The site owner is on a fixed contract until mid 2023 so there have been no new charges that he’s paying. He’s just decided to start charging us £20 extra!

No - the OFGEM guidelines say that the meter reading charge does not mean he is profiting from reselling.  It specifically says that he can recover administrative costs such as that separately from the cost of the fuel, and either include them in something like a pitch fee or charge for them individually.

All that has changed from the energy resale perspective is that he was previously choosing not to individually recover these costs and now he is.

Whether the written agreement allows him to introduce or modify an existing service charge (I say modify because he may argue "I had a £0 charge and now it is a £20 charge") is a different matter, but this is not covered by the rules about energy resale.

Ok I see the distinction. In my circumstances, the meter reading charge does appear to be unlawful. If bills are currently covering what the site owner pays including admin charges (they are) then if the site owner starts charging extra, when we’re in a fixed contract and costs haven’t increased, then that’s almost certainly profit. That appears to be what’s happening here. We’ve been paying for our units used plus all the additional charges that are lawful, including a ‘metering charge’ as part of our monthly bills. This £20 charge isn’t part of these additional charges; this is a new charge and doesn’t cover any extra costs arising for the site owner.

Didn’t the upper tier and the first tier tribunals rule that so long as residents are covering what the site owner pays for usage and additional fees, site owners cannot charge extra for things like reading a meter or providing a bill *unless* the written agreement allows this as it’s assumed to be included in the pitch fee? See: https://www.ibblaw.co.uk/insights/blog/can-residential-park-owners-charge-electricity-administration-charges

My agreement makes no allowance for any such extra fee, hence I think it’s unlawful. I’m not a legal expert though but I have sought some advice. 

Hes also been charging an extra 3-5p per KWH of units used and only charging the more expensive daytime rate per unit (we have day/night rates on the contract) for a year and has ignored requests to refund overpayments so there are several issues and profiting seems to be at the heart of them all. 

That first part - again no.  I'll repeat it.  Admin charges are not included in the consideration of making profit on energy resale.  The park homes tribunal decisions might cover your situation - but it is not anything to do with the resale rules.

That second part - a much bigger issue.  This is in direct contravention of the resale rules.  The owner cannot charge you more than they pay (including standing charge). If you have multi-rate metering (day and night measurements separately) then the owner must respect those readings.  If you have only single rate metering, the owner must "use his reasonable endeavours to estimate what proportion of the total bill each tenant should pay".  Assuming everything at day and nothing at night is not "reasonable endeavours".

I'd be much more concerned about that second obvious contravention of the law rather than trying to argue against a £20 service charge - although I realise that the £20 is more urgent in your mind at the moment given the threat of court.

Ok I think I understand now - it’s so complicated! What I was meaning was that the tribunal has previously ruled admin charges cannot be added on unless the written agreement allows for this, which mine does not. That’s the linked ruling. Not re-selling regulations but the overall point about the site owner not being allowed to do it in my case still seems to be accurate I think. 

You’re right and I am very concerned about being overcharged; I was just clearer in my head about that and know it can be dealt with by the tribunal so that wasn’t my original query. It was the small claims court threat from the site owner that threw me as I don’t understand that process and I’m concerned the magistrates wouldn’t know the specifics of park home law like the tribunal would.

The site owner has ignored 3 requests from one resident’s solicitor to provide evidence of the bills and an explanation of the charges (I have thankfully got copies of site bills for the past 2 years). It’s cheeky then that he’d threaten to take me (and other residents) to court over non-payment of a very likely unlawful charge. It seems he can though so I’ll just have to see if he does as threatened and make my case.

Thanks for the clarity 

Yes, I think you're probably right that the site owner isn't allowed to do it based on the tribunal decisions and your agreement.  It's just good to be clear which rules/regulations/guidelines are being broken to make the arguments and evidence you would need more obvious.  I'd hate for you to build a case about the resale rules that would easily get thrown out, when you seem to have a solid alternative case.

Spies

Maybe send a letter around and get everyone to band together against these insane charges? 

smellymel74

Spies said:

Maybe send a letter around and get everyone to band together against these insane charges? 

Spies said:

Maybe send a letter around and get everyone to band together against these insane charges? 

If only it were that simple! About half the residents have written to the site owner but received either no reply at all or a reply saying they have to pay or he’ll take them to small claims court. Given this, residents are applying to the first tier tribunal to challenge the charges. Yesterday 2 residents were told off by the site manager for going to neighbours houses to see if they’d like to join the case. He told them they’d ‘be in big trouble’ if they kept ‘inciting’ residents about it. the site owner is basically a bully and letters don’t cut it with him unfortunately. 

ariarnia

smellymel74 said:

Spies said:

Maybe send a letter around and get everyone to band together against these insane charges? 

Spies said:

Maybe send a letter around and get everyone to band together against these insane charges? 

If only it were that simple! About half the residents have written to the site owner but received either no reply at all or a reply saying they have to pay or he’ll take them to small claims court. Given this, residents are applying to the first tier tribunal to challenge the charges. Yesterday 2 residents were told off by the site manager for going to neighbours houses to see if they’d like to join the case. He told them they’d ‘be in big trouble’ if they kept ‘inciting’ residents about it. the site owner is basically a bully and letters don’t cut it with him unfortunately. 

if you can get who he's threatened to write it down as witness testimony then i would include that with my case. i'm not sure exactly what law that would be breaking but if he were renting you a flat not a park home he would get into serious trouble for that. 

doodling

Hi,

Can I just point out that a court claim might be in your interest at this point.  You will have the opportunity to counter claim in your defense so you can say "no, I don't owe £20 a month and the owner owes me £xx because he has been overcharging me for some units".  The court would rule on the whole disagreement which, by the sound of it, would leave you ahead.  Treat a small claims case as an opportunity to claim against the owner without you having to pay court costs up front.