Park home owner - energy overcharged now court?

smellymel74

pochase said:

It does not seem that the meter reading charge in itself is illegal if you look at Ofgem guidelines.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2005/10/11782-resaleupdateoct05_3.pdf

It seem the landlord is able to recover administration costs, it is just questionable how high this can be.

I’m not saying the meter reading charge in and of itself is necessarily unlawful; that depends on your written agreement and what you’re already being charged for on your bill as far as I can tell. In my case I’m 95% sure it is though as site owners cannot profit from the re-selling and he meter reading charge means he is. I pay for meter reading and billing as part of my pitch fee already. And I pay for the units I use and all other allowable charges (standing charge but not climate change levy) in my monthly bill. The site owner is on a fixed contract until mid 2023 so there have been no new charges that he’s paying. He’s just decided to start charging us £20 extra!

BooJewels

smellymel74 said:

BooJewels said:

@dealyboy has perhaps already given you a better answer, but I was about to ask if you have legal cover included with your contents insurance - as that often covers contractual matters?

Although it's possible that your insurance is part of your site fees, so may be problematic if there's a conflictof interest. 

That’s a great idea - I’ll check my policy documents. Could be a lifeline here so worth digging out. 

We used their services on three occasions over the years and won our case each time (they only take you on if your chances of success are greater than 51%), for the cost of the excess on the claim.  The last one was pretty significant and it's why I probably pay over the odds for my premium - loyalty works both ways.  In the first instance, just calling their advice line might give you the answers.

smellymel74

BooJewels said:

smellymel74 said:

BooJewels said:

@dealyboy has perhaps already given you a better answer, but I was about to ask if you have legal cover included with your contents insurance - as that often covers contractual matters?

Although it's possible that your insurance is part of your site fees, so may be problematic if there's a conflictof interest. 

That’s a great idea - I’ll check my policy documents. Could be a lifeline here so worth digging out. 

We used their services on three occasions over the years and won our case each time (they only take you on if your chances of success are greater than 51%), for the cost of the excess on the claim.  The last one was pretty significant and it's why I probably pay over the odds for my premium - loyalty works both ways.  In the first instance, just calling their advice line might give you the answers.

Thanks BooJewels. These things pay for themselves if you ever need them. I’ve been lucky that I never had so it’s my own fault for getting complacent I guess. Lessons learned and I’ll be making sure I have legal cover in future as my faith in the site owner has been severely shaken over this. 

Glad you’ve managed to get your issues fixed, though it’s a shame you’ve had to go through all the hassle to get there.

[Deleted User]

smellymel74 said:

pochase said:

It does not seem that the meter reading charge in itself is illegal if you look at Ofgem guidelines.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2005/10/11782-resaleupdateoct05_3.pdf

It seem the landlord is able to recover administration costs, it is just questionable how high this can be.

I’m not saying the meter reading charge in and of itself is necessarily unlawful; that depends on your written agreement and what you’re already being charged for on your bill as far as I can tell. In my case I’m 95% sure it is though as site owners cannot profit from the re-selling and he meter reading charge means he is. I pay for meter reading and billing as part of my pitch fee already. And I pay for the units I use and all other allowable charges (standing charge but not climate change levy) in my monthly bill. The site owner is on a fixed contract until mid 2023 so there have been no new charges that he’s paying. He’s just decided to start charging us £20 extra!

No - the OFGEM guidelines say that the meter reading charge does not mean he is profiting from reselling.  It specifically says that he can recover administrative costs such as that separately from the cost of the fuel, and either include them in something like a pitch fee or charge for them individually.

All that has changed from the energy resale perspective is that he was previously choosing not to individually recover these costs and now he is.

Whether the written agreement allows him to introduce or modify an existing service charge (I say modify because he may argue "I had a £0 charge and now it is a £20 charge") is a different matter, but this is not covered by the rules about energy resale.

ariarnia

if it does go to small claims then thats not a bad thing. they're the normal magistrate court just online for low amounts of money. so they have all the same legal information and knowledge as the big courts. 

what you would need to do is put your case together. that means keep all letters from your park owner. copies of your contract. copies of what you think are the relevent rulings from the tribunal. and any other paperwork that you think makes your case. 

the landlord will have to submit his case and evidence first. you will get to see it. then you have time to respond (pay attention to deadlines) and i'm sure there are people on here who can help (or that helpline youve been given seems great). i dont think you have to attend anywhere in person its all online and post.

you just need to be aware that you can't claim for costs so if you do go for legal advice and have to pay you can't get that back if you win. but you shouldn't need it as its all set up to be as easy as possible for normal people to represent themselves. 

keep us updated? 

BooJewels

smellymel74 said:

BooJewels said:

smellymel74 said:

BooJewels said:

@dealyboy has perhaps already given you a better answer, but I was about to ask if you have legal cover included with your contents insurance - as that often covers contractual matters?

Although it's possible that your insurance is part of your site fees, so may be problematic if there's a conflictof interest. 

That’s a great idea - I’ll check my policy documents. Could be a lifeline here so worth digging out. 

We used their services on three occasions over the years and won our case each time (they only take you on if your chances of success are greater than 51%), for the cost of the excess on the claim.  The last one was pretty significant and it's why I probably pay over the odds for my premium - loyalty works both ways.  In the first instance, just calling their advice line might give you the answers.

Thanks BooJewels. These things pay for themselves if you ever need them. I’ve been lucky that I never had so it’s my own fault for getting complacent I guess. Lessons learned and I’ll be making sure I have legal cover in future as my faith in the site owner has been severely shaken over this. 

Glad you’ve managed to get your issues fixed, though it’s a shame you’ve had to go through all the hassle to get there.

I just had a quick squiz at my policy and it cost me £24 for the year, so to me, it is very well worth it.  It covers up to £100,000 legal costs in pursuing a claim - obviously only certain areas are covered.  There was an excess to pay - but I can't see the amount in the docs here - but I do have higher voluntary excesses in place.

The last and most significant claim they helped us with in 2019 was a particularly difficult time, but the help we had from them was as good as if I'd been paying by the hour.  I think the excess was 40 quid - probably about 12p per hour for the work they did!

smellymel74

Deleted_User said:

smellymel74 said:

pochase said:

It does not seem that the meter reading charge in itself is illegal if you look at Ofgem guidelines.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2005/10/11782-resaleupdateoct05_3.pdf

It seem the landlord is able to recover administration costs, it is just questionable how high this can be.

I’m not saying the meter reading charge in and of itself is necessarily unlawful; that depends on your written agreement and what you’re already being charged for on your bill as far as I can tell. In my case I’m 95% sure it is though as site owners cannot profit from the re-selling and he meter reading charge means he is. I pay for meter reading and billing as part of my pitch fee already. And I pay for the units I use and all other allowable charges (standing charge but not climate change levy) in my monthly bill. The site owner is on a fixed contract until mid 2023 so there have been no new charges that he’s paying. He’s just decided to start charging us £20 extra!

No - the OFGEM guidelines say that the meter reading charge does not mean he is profiting from reselling.  It specifically says that he can recover administrative costs such as that separately from the cost of the fuel, and either include them in something like a pitch fee or charge for them individually.

All that has changed from the energy resale perspective is that he was previously choosing not to individually recover these costs and now he is.

Whether the written agreement allows him to introduce or modify an existing service charge (I say modify because he may argue "I had a £0 charge and now it is a £20 charge") is a different matter, but this is not covered by the rules about energy resale.

Ok I see the distinction. In my circumstances, the meter reading charge does appear to be unlawful. If bills are currently covering what the site owner pays including admin charges (they are) then if the site owner starts charging extra, when we’re in a fixed contract and costs haven’t increased, then that’s almost certainly profit. That appears to be what’s happening here. We’ve been paying for our units used plus all the additional charges that are lawful, including a ‘metering charge’ as part of our monthly bills. This £20 charge isn’t part of these additional charges; this is a new charge and doesn’t cover any extra costs arising for the site owner.

Didn’t the upper tier and the first tier tribunals rule that so long as residents are covering what the site owner pays for usage and additional fees, site owners cannot charge extra for things like reading a meter or providing a bill *unless* the written agreement allows this as it’s assumed to be included in the pitch fee? See: https://www.ibblaw.co.uk/insights/blog/can-residential-park-owners-charge-electricity-administration-charges

My agreement makes no allowance for any such extra fee, hence I think it’s unlawful. I’m not a legal expert though but I have sought some advice. 

Hes also been charging an extra 3-5p per KWH of units used and only charging the more expensive daytime rate per unit (we have day/night rates on the contract) for a year and has ignored requests to refund overpayments so there are several issues and profiting seems to be at the heart of them all. 

smellymel74

ariarnia said:

if it does go to small claims then thats not a bad thing. they're the normal magistrate court just online for low amounts of money. so they have all the same legal information and knowledge as the big courts. 

what you would need to do is put your case together. that means keep all letters from your park owner. copies of your contract. copies of what you think are the relevent rulings from the tribunal. and any other paperwork that you think makes your case. 

the landlord will have to submit his case and evidence first. you will get to see it. then you have time to respond (pay attention to deadlines) and i'm sure there are people on here who can help (or that helpline youve been given seems great). i dont think you have to attend anywhere in person its all online and post.

you just need to be aware that you can't claim for costs so if you do go for legal advice and have to pay you can't get that back if you win. but you shouldn't need it as its all set up to be as easy as possible for normal people to represent themselves. 

keep us updated? 

Thank you Ariania - that’s very helpful and simply explained. It all feels quite scary as I’ve never been in trouble for anything really so it’s nice to have it explained in a way that makes it less frightening my son and daughter have been a great help so far so I’m lucky really.if it happens it happens and we’ll do our best to deal with it. I’ll certainly update if it might help someone - we found it v difficult to find people who know this area of law and the legal jargon can make it seem so complex 

[Deleted User]

smellymel74 said:

Deleted_User said:

smellymel74 said:

pochase said:

It does not seem that the meter reading charge in itself is illegal if you look at Ofgem guidelines.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2005/10/11782-resaleupdateoct05_3.pdf

It seem the landlord is able to recover administration costs, it is just questionable how high this can be.

I’m not saying the meter reading charge in and of itself is necessarily unlawful; that depends on your written agreement and what you’re already being charged for on your bill as far as I can tell. In my case I’m 95% sure it is though as site owners cannot profit from the re-selling and he meter reading charge means he is. I pay for meter reading and billing as part of my pitch fee already. And I pay for the units I use and all other allowable charges (standing charge but not climate change levy) in my monthly bill. The site owner is on a fixed contract until mid 2023 so there have been no new charges that he’s paying. He’s just decided to start charging us £20 extra!

No - the OFGEM guidelines say that the meter reading charge does not mean he is profiting from reselling.  It specifically says that he can recover administrative costs such as that separately from the cost of the fuel, and either include them in something like a pitch fee or charge for them individually.

All that has changed from the energy resale perspective is that he was previously choosing not to individually recover these costs and now he is.

Whether the written agreement allows him to introduce or modify an existing service charge (I say modify because he may argue "I had a £0 charge and now it is a £20 charge") is a different matter, but this is not covered by the rules about energy resale.

Ok I see the distinction. In my circumstances, the meter reading charge does appear to be unlawful. If bills are currently covering what the site owner pays including admin charges (they are) then if the site owner starts charging extra, when we’re in a fixed contract and costs haven’t increased, then that’s almost certainly profit. That appears to be what’s happening here. We’ve been paying for our units used plus all the additional charges that are lawful, including a ‘metering charge’ as part of our monthly bills. This £20 charge isn’t part of these additional charges; this is a new charge and doesn’t cover any extra costs arising for the site owner.

Didn’t the upper tier and the first tier tribunals rule that so long as residents are covering what the site owner pays for usage and additional fees, site owners cannot charge extra for things like reading a meter or providing a bill *unless* the written agreement allows this as it’s assumed to be included in the pitch fee? See: https://www.ibblaw.co.uk/insights/blog/can-residential-park-owners-charge-electricity-administration-charges

My agreement makes no allowance for any such extra fee, hence I think it’s unlawful. I’m not a legal expert though but I have sought some advice. 

Hes also been charging an extra 3-5p per KWH of units used and only charging the more expensive daytime rate per unit (we have day/night rates on the contract) for a year and has ignored requests to refund overpayments so there are several issues and profiting seems to be at the heart of them all. 

That first part - again no.  I'll repeat it.  Admin charges are not included in the consideration of making profit on energy resale.  The park homes tribunal decisions might cover your situation - but it is not anything to do with the resale rules.

That second part - a much bigger issue.  This is in direct contravention of the resale rules.  The owner cannot charge you more than they pay (including standing charge). If you have multi-rate metering (day and night measurements separately) then the owner must respect those readings.  If you have only single rate metering, the owner must "use his reasonable endeavours to estimate what proportion of the total bill each tenant should pay".  Assuming everything at day and nothing at night is not "reasonable endeavours".

I'd be much more concerned about that second obvious contravention of the law rather than trying to argue against a £20 service charge - although I realise that the £20 is more urgent in your mind at the moment given the threat of court.

smellymel74

BooJewels said:

smellymel74 said:

BooJewels said:

smellymel74 said:

BooJewels said:

@dealyboy has perhaps already given you a better answer, but I was about to ask if you have legal cover included with your contents insurance - as that often covers contractual matters?

Although it's possible that your insurance is part of your site fees, so may be problematic if there's a conflictof interest. 

That’s a great idea - I’ll check my policy documents. Could be a lifeline here so worth digging out. 

We used their services on three occasions over the years and won our case each time (they only take you on if your chances of success are greater than 51%), for the cost of the excess on the claim.  The last one was pretty significant and it's why I probably pay over the odds for my premium - loyalty works both ways.  In the first instance, just calling their advice line might give you the answers.

Thanks BooJewels. These things pay for themselves if you ever need them. I’ve been lucky that I never had so it’s my own fault for getting complacent I guess. Lessons learned and I’ll be making sure I have legal cover in future as my faith in the site owner has been severely shaken over this. 

Glad you’ve managed to get your issues fixed, though it’s a shame you’ve had to go through all the hassle to get there.

I just had a quick squiz at my policy and it cost me £24 for the year, so to me, it is very well worth it.  It covers up to £100,000 legal costs in pursuing a claim - obviously only certain areas are covered.  There was an excess to pay - but I can't see the amount in the docs here - but I do have higher voluntary excesses in place.

The last and most significant claim they helped us with in 2019 was a particularly difficult time, but the help we had from them was as good as if I'd been paying by the hour.  I think the excess was 40 quid - probably about 12p per hour for the work they did!

Wow! Definitely money saving! Smart decision 👏🏻