Legal letter from French seller

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

soolin said:

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

As a forum ambassador I am sure you can quickly point to the clause in the CCR or CRA that states they must provide a label..,. I'm awaiting the backdown @soonlin

eBay policy has always favoured the buyer, there are issues with some buyers who say the item is SNAD to get a free return, eBay claim they monitor such and ban abusive buyers from the Money Back Guarantee. Whilst I don't have much faith in that last aspect it's obviously difficult for eBay to balance such things for every single specific case but ultimately where there are buyers there will be sellers so eBay sensibly looks after the buyers. 

eBay policy is not the law.

Many things favour the little guy, like chargebacks, but the law is slightly more neutral, Banks, eBay etc are not courts of law and so do not create a final resolution. They shift the balance putting the need to litigate onto the business as they can better afford the risk of court fees and are more likely to be more practical than emotional on if its worth issuing.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Prepaid return is not a requirement for reclaiming HMRC charges

The seller at one point asked OP to return the item to a UK address, OP refused as they felt doing so would prevent them for reclaiming the VAT and duty. The seller told OP they wouldn't get the duty regardless of where the return went and the seller refused to pay return costs either to the UK or France as well. I think that's what the OP is saying  

As is so common here, exacerbated by certain militant/ ill informed members/mods/wanna be mods who may mean well but give terrible advice, we often are acting on half information and poorly written stories.

Rule of thumb number 1, take any oversea entity's advice on you countries tax law with a large pinch of salt... very few companies employ experts in tax across all 195 countries in the world. As the importer its your responsibility to know your country's laws.

Personally I buy a reasonable amount from other countries either due to price or availability, normally a few purchases a month. Can count on one hand how many I've not known the address of the seller inc via eBay post purchase... I also know I dont have a legal right to a prepaid return so can happily send it to their registered address and reclaim my postage costs after

I know their policy isn't the law, I wasn't referring to the law, only to your words that I highlighted in bold (which are copied below as the quoting things hides them).

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

Regarding

I dont have a legal right to a prepaid return

If the contract is governed by UK law you may have the legal right to refuse to return yourself but instead make the goods available for collection (depending upon the terms) but the bit you are missing here is, OP has said the trader point blank refused to cover the costs which they are not permitted to do. 

Robbhp

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Prepaid return is not a requirement for reclaiming HMRC charges

The seller at one point asked OP to return the item to a UK address, OP refused as they felt doing so would prevent them for reclaiming the VAT and duty. The seller told OP they wouldn't get the duty regardless of where the return went and the seller refused to pay return costs either to the UK or France as well. I think that's what the OP is saying  

Yes that's 100% Correct, also shipping to a different address other than those nominated by eBay would mean that we would have circumvented eBay rule and we would have voided our buyers protection. 

DullGreyGuy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

soolin said:

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

As a forum ambassador I am sure you can quickly point to the clause in the CCR or CRA that states they must provide a label..,. I'm awaiting the backdown @soonlin

eBay policy has always favoured the buyer, there are issues with some buyers who say the item is SNAD to get a free return, eBay claim they monitor such and ban abusive buyers from the Money Back Guarantee. Whilst I don't have much faith in that last aspect it's obviously difficult for eBay to balance such things for every single specific case but ultimately where there are buyers there will be sellers so eBay sensibly looks after the buyers. 

eBay policy is not the law.

Many things favour the little guy, like chargebacks, but the law is slightly more neutral, Banks, eBay etc are not courts of law and so do not create a final resolution. They shift the balance putting the need to litigate onto the business as they can better afford the risk of court fees and are more likely to be more practical than emotional on if its worth issuing.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Prepaid return is not a requirement for reclaiming HMRC charges

The seller at one point asked OP to return the item to a UK address, OP refused as they felt doing so would prevent them for reclaiming the VAT and duty. The seller told OP they wouldn't get the duty regardless of where the return went and the seller refused to pay return costs either to the UK or France as well. I think that's what the OP is saying  

As is so common here, exacerbated by certain militant/ ill informed members/mods/wanna be mods who may mean well but give terrible advice, we often are acting on half information and poorly written stories.

Rule of thumb number 1, take any oversea entity's advice on you countries tax law with a large pinch of salt... very few companies employ experts in tax across all 195 countries in the world. As the importer its your responsibility to know your country's laws.

Personally I buy a reasonable amount from other countries either due to price or availability, normally a few purchases a month. Can count on one hand how many I've not known the address of the seller inc via eBay post purchase... I also know I dont have a legal right to a prepaid return so can happily send it to their registered address and reclaim my postage costs after

I know their policy isn't the law, I wasn't referring to the law, only to your words that I highlighted in bold (which are copied below as the quoting things hides them).

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

Regarding

I dont have a legal right to a prepaid return

If the contract is governed by UK law you may have the legal right to refuse to return yourself but instead make the goods available for collection (depending upon the terms) but the bit you are missing here is, OP has said the trader point blank refused to cover the costs which they are not permitted to do. 

But this is where you can fall back on eBa, without the seller's consent you can get a return using a eBay rather than seller label. Assuming its accepted as a faulty item then ebay charge the seller whereas if its deemed a change of mind return instead then subject to the sellers return policy it'll often be deducted from the item refund

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Robbhp said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Prepaid return is not a requirement for reclaiming HMRC charges

The seller at one point asked OP to return the item to a UK address, OP refused as they felt doing so would prevent them for reclaiming the VAT and duty. The seller told OP they wouldn't get the duty regardless of where the return went and the seller refused to pay return costs either to the UK or France as well. I think that's what the OP is saying  

Yes that's 100% Correct, also shipping to a different address other than those nominated by eBay would mean that we would have circumvented eBay rule and we would have voided our buyers protection. 

Robbhp said:

We have only got the letter this evening so am unsure, I would feel incredibly awkward taking it back off him if he still has it he was so happy at the time. 

Very good point regarding not shipping to another address other than the one eBay tell you to return to.

OP really you have 3 options; 1 hope nothing further happens, 2 should they take legal action submit a defence 3 pay the £1100.

I assuming you want to avoid option 3 so the only question really is whether you reply. I really don't know whether ignoring would make you look unreasonable or whether replying would make you look weak and give them encouragement to keep pressure on you. 

Perhaps see if any other posters have an opinion on that point  

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

soolin said:

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

As a forum ambassador I am sure you can quickly point to the clause in the CCR or CRA that states they must provide a label..,. I'm awaiting the backdown @soonlin

eBay policy has always favoured the buyer, there are issues with some buyers who say the item is SNAD to get a free return, eBay claim they monitor such and ban abusive buyers from the Money Back Guarantee. Whilst I don't have much faith in that last aspect it's obviously difficult for eBay to balance such things for every single specific case but ultimately where there are buyers there will be sellers so eBay sensibly looks after the buyers. 

eBay policy is not the law.

Many things favour the little guy, like chargebacks, but the law is slightly more neutral, Banks, eBay etc are not courts of law and so do not create a final resolution. They shift the balance putting the need to litigate onto the business as they can better afford the risk of court fees and are more likely to be more practical than emotional on if its worth issuing.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Prepaid return is not a requirement for reclaiming HMRC charges

The seller at one point asked OP to return the item to a UK address, OP refused as they felt doing so would prevent them for reclaiming the VAT and duty. The seller told OP they wouldn't get the duty regardless of where the return went and the seller refused to pay return costs either to the UK or France as well. I think that's what the OP is saying  

As is so common here, exacerbated by certain militant/ ill informed members/mods/wanna be mods who may mean well but give terrible advice, we often are acting on half information and poorly written stories.

Rule of thumb number 1, take any oversea entity's advice on you countries tax law with a large pinch of salt... very few companies employ experts in tax across all 195 countries in the world. As the importer its your responsibility to know your country's laws.

Personally I buy a reasonable amount from other countries either due to price or availability, normally a few purchases a month. Can count on one hand how many I've not known the address of the seller inc via eBay post purchase... I also know I dont have a legal right to a prepaid return so can happily send it to their registered address and reclaim my postage costs after

I know their policy isn't the law, I wasn't referring to the law, only to your words that I highlighted in bold (which are copied below as the quoting things hides them).

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

Regarding

I dont have a legal right to a prepaid return

If the contract is governed by UK law you may have the legal right to refuse to return yourself but instead make the goods available for collection (depending upon the terms) but the bit you are missing here is, OP has said the trader point blank refused to cover the costs which they are not permitted to do. 

But this is where you can fall back on eBa, without the seller's consent you can get a return using a eBay rather than seller label. Assuming its accepted as a faulty item then ebay charge the seller whereas if its deemed a change of mind return instead then subject to the sellers return policy it'll often be deducted from the item refund

If the seller's return address is in another country eBay won't give the buyer a label, they expect the seller to do so. 

Ms_Chocaholic

Shouldn't the seller have claimed off the courier for the item being damaged in transit and therefore mitigate his/her losses.

Robbhp

Ms_Chocaholic said:

Shouldn't the seller have claimed off the courier for the item being damaged in transit and therefore mitigate his/her losses.

We did wonder this, we also don't know if they did or didn't. We uploaded the damage to eBay so it would be possible he would have supporting evidence to make a claim as he had the images, he even agreed in the opening messages that it had been damaged. That's if he took extra insurance to cover the content. 

It really was a simple case, unfortunately, it's been damaged in transit, pick it up and issue a refund or a replacement.  After around three weeks eBay told us the case had been found in our favour as no returns label had been provided and a refund would be issued. Then 4 days later they opened the case again and stopped the refund, two weeks of dither and delay and after a number of calls to try and figure out what was happening they send the " final ultimatum email " telling us they have found in our favor again and issued a full refund and I quote "You can do what you want with the item, you can dispose of it or donate it to a charity"

soolin

Ms_Chocaholic said:

Shouldn't the seller have claimed off the courier for the item being damaged in transit and therefore mitigate his/her losses.

A few sellers would just hope the problem will go away and prefer to stay quiet rather than engage in a dialogue with buyer or ebay, and it's only when it comes back to bite them that they start to look at what they should have done.

OP, it might be worth firstly seeing if you can track down the solicitor to make sure they exist , it wouldn't be the first time on here that someone has sent a legal letter from a non existent legal entity. Assuming it does check out then I think I would be getting some legal advice of my own .

pinkshoes

The "do what you want with the item" is a generic response. 

As the refund had come from the seller then the damaged item belonged to the seller and it was not for eBay to say what happened to it.

When your received the refund, you should have contacted the company and said that you have been issued a refund so could they please collect the faulty item or give you permission to dispose of it. Give them a deadline to respond.

If they do follow this legal action then your only defence is your email from ebay saying you can do what you like with it.

I would speak to the person you gave it to and get it back! Then respond to the court claim saying item was faulty, refund give, please collect item as already requested.  
  

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

pinkshoes said:

When your received the refund, you should have contacted the company and said that you have been issued a refund so could they please collect the faulty item or give you permission to dispose of it. Give them a deadline to respond.

  

I agree the OP shouldn't have given the item away, but the seller was likely given more than one opportunity to effectively collect the goods by issuing a returns label.

What eBay should have done (as per their policy) is placed the return request on hold and messaged the seller telling them to provide a label, although OP mentions the case being closed twice so it's unclear what eBay actually did. 

I don't know what the item is and what it was worth in it's state but advice is usually to eventually sell the item for a fair market value and hand that money to the seller of the goods should they ever come looking. It would be interesting to know exactly what the item was, had the OP stuck it on eBay at auction I wonder what price it would have achieved.