Legal letter from French seller

DullGreyGuy

Prepaid return is not a requirement for reclaiming HMRC charges

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

soolin said:

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

As a forum ambassador I am sure you can quickly point to the clause in the CCR or CRA that states they must provide a label..,. I'm awaiting the backdown @soonlin

eBay policy has always favoured the buyer, there are issues with some buyers who say the item is SNAD to get a free return, eBay claim they monitor such and ban abusive buyers from the Money Back Guarantee. Whilst I don't have much faith in that last aspect it's obviously difficult for eBay to balance such things for every single specific case but ultimately where there are buyers there will be sellers so eBay sensibly looks after the buyers. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

Prepaid return is not a requirement for reclaiming HMRC charges

The seller at one point asked OP to return the item to a UK address, OP refused as they felt doing so would prevent them for reclaiming the VAT and duty. The seller told OP they wouldn't get the duty regardless of where the return went and the seller refused to pay return costs either to the UK or France as well. I think that's what the OP is saying  

Robbhp

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

OP if you still have the emails from eBay saying no need to return, dispose, etc make sure you keep a hard copy of this. 

How much was the item? 

Where is the item now and if you sold it how do you do this and for how much? 

We do have hard copies and screenshots from the eBay case, we also have the email which states that we are to dispose of the item or give it away to charity.

The item was £1100

Due to the damage to the item we didn't fancy plugging it in (highly pressurized vessel when working that had taken a significant impact on the boiler). We had a close family friend that had helped us out a lot and was a handy type, we gave it to him as a Christmas present under the understanding that it may not work but he can generally fix anything.

 Ironically we are still out of pocket to the tune £250 for Import Tax and duty but after 5 weeks of this we just wanted to move on. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Robbhp said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

OP if you still have the emails from eBay saying no need to return, dispose, etc make sure you keep a hard copy of this. 

How much was the item? 

Where is the item now and if you sold it how do you do this and for how much? 

We do have hard copies and screenshots from the eBay case, we also have the email which states that we are to dispose of the item or give it away to charity.

The item was £1100

Due to the damage to the item we didn't fancy plugging it in (highly pressurized vessel when working that had taken a significant impact on the boiler). We had a close family friend that had helped us out a lot and was a handy type, we gave it to him as a Christmas present under the understanding that it may not work but he can generally fix anything.

 Ironically we are still out of pocket to the tune £250 for Import Tax and duty but after 5 weeks of this we just wanted to move on. 

Thanks OP. Does your friend still have it? Would they give it back?

If you replied to say you have the goods, there was no agreement to return rejected goods* and as such they are here awaiting collection the seller doesn't really have any position to make a claim.

I doubt they will bother to collect the goods so hopefully it would be a bluff and you'll have a happy friend but if they did insist on collecting hopefully you've got a good friend  

Consumer rights (in the UK and [edit, maybe] France) say the consumer is only bound to return rejected goods if agreed, the seller would have had to given you something in writing for that agreement to be in place (say an email of T&Cs), I've purchased thousands of things on eBay and only ever get the generic emails, I highly doubt they bothered, if they argued back to say you agreed to return (which would still be at their cost) you'd have to ask them to prove it.

I assume you purchased on eBay.co.uk (rather than eBay's French site)?

Does the letter say which country they intend to take action in? 

soolin

DullGreyGuy said:

soolin said:

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

As a forum ambassador I am sure you can quickly point to the clause in the CCR or CRA that states they must provide a label..,. I'm awaiting the backdown @soonlin

https://www.inbrief.co.uk/consumer-law/returning-goods-faulty-sales-of-goods/

• a refund, or repair or replacement if you reject the item within 30 days. The seller is to bear the costs of return. 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/buying/returns-refunds/start-return/return-postage?id=4066#section3

Tip
If the seller is responsible for return postage, it's important that they cover the costs. If they don't provide a paid method of return postage, or if they don't offer to reimburse you for return postage, let us know by asking eBay to step in.

Robbhp

DullGreyGuy said:

soolin said:

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

As a forum ambassador I am sure you can quickly point to the clause in the CCR or CRA that states they must provide a label..,. I'm awaiting the backdown @soonlin

Return of goods in the event of cancellation

35.—(1) Where a sales contract is cancelled under regulation 29(1), it is the trader’s responsibility to collect the goods if—

(a)the trader has offered to collect them, or

(b)in the case of an off-premises contract, the goods were delivered to the consumer’s home when the contract was entered into and could not, by their nature, normally be returned by post.

(2) If it is not the trader’s responsibility under paragraph (1) to collect the goods, the consumer must—

(a)send them back, or

(b)hand them over to the trader or to a person authorised by the trader to receive them.

(3) The address to which goods must be sent under paragraph (2)(a) is—

(a)any address specified by the trader for sending the goods back;

(b)if no address is specified for that purpose, any address specified by the trader for the consumer to contact the trader;

(c)if no address is specified for either of those purposes, any place of business of the trader.

(4) The consumer must send off the goods under paragraph (2)(a), or hand them over under paragraph (2)(b), without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 days after the day on which the consumer informs the trader as required by regulation 32(2).

(5) The consumer must bear the direct cost of returning goods under paragraph (2), unless—

(a)the trader has agreed to bear those costs, or

(b)the trader failed to provide the consumer with the information about the consumer bearing those costs, required by paragraph (m) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

(6) The contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must bear the direct cost of the consumer returning goods under paragraph (2) where paragraph (5)(b) applies.

(7) The consumer is not required to bear any other cost of returning goods under paragraph (2).

(8) The consumer is not required to bear any cost of collecting goods under paragraph (1) unless the consumer agreed to bear them

DullGreyGuy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

soolin said:

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

As a forum ambassador I am sure you can quickly point to the clause in the CCR or CRA that states they must provide a label..,. I'm awaiting the backdown @soonlin

eBay policy has always favoured the buyer, there are issues with some buyers who say the item is SNAD to get a free return, eBay claim they monitor such and ban abusive buyers from the Money Back Guarantee. Whilst I don't have much faith in that last aspect it's obviously difficult for eBay to balance such things for every single specific case but ultimately where there are buyers there will be sellers so eBay sensibly looks after the buyers. 

eBay policy is not the law.

Many things favour the little guy, like chargebacks, but the law is slightly more neutral, Banks, eBay etc are not courts of law and so do not create a final resolution. They shift the balance putting the need to litigate onto the business as they can better afford the risk of court fees and are more likely to be more practical than emotional on if its worth issuing.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Prepaid return is not a requirement for reclaiming HMRC charges

The seller at one point asked OP to return the item to a UK address, OP refused as they felt doing so would prevent them for reclaiming the VAT and duty. The seller told OP they wouldn't get the duty regardless of where the return went and the seller refused to pay return costs either to the UK or France as well. I think that's what the OP is saying  

As is so common here, exacerbated by certain militant/ ill informed members/mods/wanna be mods who may mean well but give terrible advice, we often are acting on half information and poorly written stories.

Rule of thumb number 1, take any oversea entity's advice on you countries tax law with a large pinch of salt... very few companies employ experts in tax across all 195 countries in the world. As the importer its your responsibility to know your country's laws.

Personally I buy a reasonable amount from other countries either due to price or availability, normally a few purchases a month. Can count on one hand how many I've not known the address of the seller inc via eBay post purchase... I also know I dont have a legal right to a prepaid return so can happily send it to their registered address and reclaim my postage costs after

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Robbhp said:

DullGreyGuy said:

soolin said:

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

As a forum ambassador I am sure you can quickly point to the clause in the CCR or CRA that states they must provide a label..,. I'm awaiting the backdown @soonlin

Return of goods in the event of cancellation

35.—(1) Where a sales contract is cancelled under regulation 29(1), it is the trader’s responsibility to collect the goods if—

(a)the trader has offered to collect them, or

(b)in the case of an off-premises contract, the goods were delivered to the consumer’s home when the contract was entered into and could not, by their nature, normally be returned by post.

(2) If it is not the trader’s responsibility under paragraph (1) to collect the goods, the consumer must—

(a)send them back, or

(b)hand them over to the trader or to a person authorised by the trader to receive them.

(3) The address to which goods must be sent under paragraph (2)(a) is—

(a)any address specified by the trader for sending the goods back;

(b)if no address is specified for that purpose, any address specified by the trader for the consumer to contact the trader;

(c)if no address is specified for either of those purposes, any place of business of the trader.

(4) The consumer must send off the goods under paragraph (2)(a), or hand them over under paragraph (2)(b), without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 days after the day on which the consumer informs the trader as required by regulation 32(2).

(5) The consumer must bear the direct cost of returning goods under paragraph (2), unless—

(a)the trader has agreed to bear those costs, or

(b)the trader failed to provide the consumer with the information about the consumer bearing those costs, required by paragraph (m) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

(6) The contract is to be treated as including a term that the trader must bear the direct cost of the consumer returning goods under paragraph (2) where paragraph (5)(b) applies.

(7) The consumer is not required to bear any other cost of returning goods under paragraph (2).

(8) The consumer is not required to bear any cost of collecting goods under paragraph (1) unless the consumer agreed to bear them

@Robbin The above refers to cancellation, your issue is the goods do not conform to the contract which is covered by UK law below and referenced to in my above message:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/20/enacted

(7)From the time when the right is exercised—

(a)the trader has a duty to give the consumer a refund, subject to subsection (18), and

(b)the consumer has a duty to make the goods available for collection by the trader or (if there is an agreement for the consumer to return rejected goods) to return them as agreed.

(8)Whether or not the consumer has a duty to return the rejected goods, the trader must bear any reasonable costs of returning them, other than any costs incurred by the consumer in returning the goods in person to the place where the consumer took physical possession of them.

I have no idea if your contract is covered by UK or French law. French law will be the same as UK for a basic viewpoint including the trader being responsible for the cost of return, I'm checking now to clarify the part about return/collection for EU law. 

Robbhp

We have only got the letter this evening so am unsure, I would feel incredibly awkward taking it back off him if he still has it he was so happy at the time.