Legal letter from French seller

Robbhp

In September 2021 we bought an exspensive kitchen item from France through eBay. Unfortunately the item arrived damaged and with an EU plug ( listing clearly stated UK plug). To complicate matters we had paid a considerable amount of import duty and VAT on the item. This was fine as we could get this back if the item was returned to the French company address. The seller refused to give us a shipping label for the items return claiming it was our responsibility to pay for return shipping. This is not the case and we stuck to our guns, they also gave misleading advice to try and get us to return it to a UK address saying we couldn't get our Duty and VAT refund when that's not the case. 

After realising that we weren't getting anywhere with the seller we opened a case for the return of the item . The seller still refused to issue a label and eBay found in our favour (after five weeks) and told us to dispose of the item or give it away to charity ( we have the email that states this). A full refund was then issued back to us with the case closing in our favour. 

Roll on over 12 month and we receive a letter from a French solicitor demanding payment for the item that was not returned within 10 days or legal action will be taken.

I am unsure were we stand, firstly they  only have our address and name but have no idea if we even still live here. 

 Secondly we have no direct dealings with the company it was bought through eBay and thus our contract is with eBay. eBay managed the returns process and issued us the refund and instructed us to dispose of the item . Surly the grievance is with eBay and the trading terms on that platform.

At the time we also registered the complaint with trading standards as we were not happy with how eBay were dealing with the case. Have no idea if this is helpful or not but I guess at least there's a record of problems. 

Tha nk you in advance for any help . 

DullGreyGuy

Market places like eBay or Amazon Marketplace normally will state your contract of sale is with the merchant rather than with them, hence your invoice will be issued in the name of the vendor not the market place.

Like chargebacks, the T&Cs that both the merchant and the buyer agrees to empowers the banks/market place to deal with matters but they aren't a court of law so in reality all they are doing is shifting who has to do the chasing. You'll find many cases on here where someone has done a chargeback, the bank has returned their money and then the merchant sues them for the monies.

I am surprised that eBay ruled in your favour before you returned the item, its normally a requirement. If however the merchant does follow through with their threats you are likely to have a reasonable complaint against eBay for their bad instruction to dispose of the goods.

Robbhp

DullGreyGuy said:

Market places like eBay or Amazon Marketplace normally will state your contract of sale is with the merchant rather than with them, hence your invoice will be issued in the name of the vendor not the market place.

Like chargebacks, the T&Cs that both the merchant and the buyer agrees to empowers the banks/market place to deal with matters but they aren't a court of law so in reality all they are doing is shifting who has to do the chasing. You'll find many cases on here where someone has done a chargeback, the bank has returned their money and then the merchant sues them for the monies.

I am surprised that eBay ruled in your favour before you returned the item, its normally a requirement. If however the merchant does follow through with their threats you are likely to have a reasonable complaint against eBay for their bad instruction to dispose of the goods.

Thank you for your reply, the issue at the time was due to the fact the retailer wouldn't issue a return label and still hasn't to this day. With the item arriving damaged to us and not as described with the wrong electrical plug and thus seller responsible to provide the returns label. We asked for a returns label in the opening emails (which we still also have) because of the damage the item had received in the post. We asked at least another 3 times with the seller refusing to give us one. We then opened the case with eBay which they also refused to issue a returns label. 

It's also worth pointing out that over a year ago it's not like last month I don't know if that makes any difference. 

Thank you for your reply. 

Robbhp

"We then opened the case with eBay which they also refused to issue a returns label."

"Sorry that should have said"

We then opened the case with eBay and the seller still refused to issue a returns label.

DullGreyGuy

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

soolin

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

EBay do force a refund if seller refuses to co operate, and not just eBay, paypal and many credit cards do the same. 

The seller can do whatever they want legally, but I suspect it is probably just bluster as failure to provide for returns , and then ignoring the whole situation for a year hardly seems reasonable. 

It is also not the buyers place to arrange for the correct plug to be attached, if it was sold for the Uk then it needed a Uk plug , there are many electrical items that are not supposed to be used with adapters. 

OP it might be worth a call to eBay, I suspect they won’t be helpful , but if you are concerned perhaps a call to citizens advice or such like if they still actually offer any appointments might be a good idea. 

Robbhp

No the issue was the item arrived badly damaged and thus was needing to be returned for this foremost.

 The return shipping cost as per UK consumer rights do infact state that its the seller's responsibility to pay for the return shipping of faulty goods and the customer should not bear the responsibility of this cost, this is also in line with what trading standards told us as at the time and eBays buyer protection. At the time all we wanted to do was ship it back and get a full refund and buy from an alternative retailer. 

The issue was if we are to pay return shipping then we are liable for the item and have to also endure the cost of extra insurance to cover the cost of the item. This was also the stance of eBay at the time, the reason that eBay closed the case was because the seller would not provide a pre-paid returns label. After multiple attempts, eBay eventually told us to discard of the item and issued us a full refund. 

Also as this was a kitchen appliance a sealed IP-rated plug has to be fitted so an adaptor was not an option and the item would have to be taken apart to change out the whole cable. The plug was a secondary issue though, the main issue was the damage to the item. From a legal standpoint though you are not allowed to ship an item into the UK that does not come with a UK Plug, even more frustratingly we only bought from this retail because he specifically stated it had a UK plug fitted. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

Market places like eBay or Amazon Marketplace normally will state your contract of sale is with the merchant rather than with them, hence your invoice will be issued in the name of the vendor not the market place.

Like chargebacks, the T&Cs that both the merchant and the buyer agrees to empowers the banks/market place to deal with matters but they aren't a court of law so in reality all they are doing is shifting who has to do the chasing. You'll find many cases on here where someone has done a chargeback, the bank has returned their money and then the merchant sues them for the monies.

I am surprised that eBay ruled in your favour before you returned the item, its normally a requirement. If however the merchant does follow through with their threats you are likely to have a reasonable complaint against eBay for their bad instruction to dispose of the goods.

eBay is very clear with this, if the buyer claims the item is not as described the seller must issue a label (or eBay may issue one to the buyer and charge the seller for this but I doubt they do this for international returns) and if the seller fails to do this the buyer may not be required to return the item (which in this case applies).

It would be interesting to know where this would stand from a legal position, the seller certainly hasn't mitigated their loss as they refused to provide a label in accordance with the agreement they have with eBay, not to mention under EU law they are bound to cover the return costs (plus caused the whole issue by sending something that wasn't as described). 

I understand that if eBay didn't abide by the terms of their policy a site member may have a claim against eBay but does the adjudication of the matter by eBay hold any bearing or did OP become an involuntary bailee? 

OP if you still have the emails from eBay saying no need to return, dispose, etc make sure you keep a hard copy of this. 

How much was the item? 

Where is the item now and if you sold it how do you do this and for how much? 

DullGreyGuy

soolin said:

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

Just as scam buyer would claim an item was "faulty" to get the free return that allows them to return a non0-faulty item at no cost.

As a forum ambassador I am sure you can quickly point to the clause in the CCR or CRA that states they must provide a label..,. I'm awaiting the backdown @soonlin

Robbhp

soolin said:

DullGreyGuy said:

No idea of the law of limitations in France but in England its 6 years and so they are well within their allowed timescales here.

Not really sure what you mean by a "label"? Were you really refusing to return it because they didn't give you a sticky thing with their address written on it or did you not have any address to return it to? If the later then eBay should have provided it. If you really mean about the cost of return then under English law there is no requirement for them to prepay for return; buyer paying for the return and the merchant refunding is perfectly acceptable.

I assume you bought from eBay.co.uk? If they did then its likely they should have at least provided an adaptor to make it work with a UK socket out the box but given these are sold at the 99p Store is it really worth this investment in time for less than £1?

Firstly, the seller would be expected to provide a pre paid label , not just the sticky address label you refer to, and there is no requirement for buyer to return the item until that return label is supplied, otherwise think of the scammer sellers who would just refuse to ever issue a pre paid label and therefore never have to refund anything. 

EBay do force a refund if seller refuses to co operate, and not just eBay, paypal and many credit cards do the same. 

The seller can do whatever they want legally, but I suspect it is probably just bluster as failure to provide for returns , and then ignoring the whole situation for a year hardly seems reasonable. 

It is also not the buyers place to arrange for the correct plug to be attached, if it was sold for the Uk then it needed a Uk plug , there are many electrical items that are not supposed to be used with adapters. 

OP it might be worth a call to eBay, I suspect they won’t be helpful , but if you are concerned perhaps a call to citizens advice or such like if they still actually offer any appointments might be a good idea. 

Thank you, that is effectively in line with my line of thought, needless to say a little concerned all things considered.

To trade on the eBay platform you have to trade under their rules, failure to do so means that you can't sell on their platform. The buyer's protection policy is fundamental to this.

 Ultimately we just wanted to return the damaged item and asked for a returns label to send it back, this would have also enabled us to claim back the customs charges with a HMRC refund form  (forgot the name of the form now). The seller was actively evasive and would not provide the label. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

soolin said:

It is also not the buyers place to arrange for the correct plug to be attached, if it was sold for the Uk then it needed a Uk plug , there are many electrical items that are not supposed to be used with adapters. 

It's a legal requirement for electrical items to have either a 3 pin plug, or come with an adapter, that meets the required safety requirements but the seller and item wasn't in the UK so I'm not sure if this still applies (although of course obviously if the ad said it had a UK plug and it didn't then it wasn't as described).