Help! UC Stopped, Council Now Want The Whole Years Council Tax

Genex

NedS said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Edit: though if it's not been 6 months of nil payable, or recalculated to be that, it still doesn't explain why they closed it.

I'm pretty sure the automated claim closures after 6 months of NIL award are only for claims NILLED by employed earnings, not S/E earnings (although I could be wrong).

I suspect in this case a WC has decided there is no point keeping a claim open where the MIF is now applied and will NIL the award. Why would the claimant want to continue reporting their S/E income and expenses every month if they are never going to receive any UC. The claimant can reopen the claim if they disagree, but that's not going to change the outcome or underlying entitlement.

Some good points. As I mentioned in another reply there are other benefits to having an open claim even without getting payment such as - in this case - the council tax reduction.  I completely agree though, if they're using the MIF and not awarding anything below it and nothing if you go over it, filling in the details every month does seem pointless.

calcotti

Genex said:
Some good points. As I mentioned in another reply there are other benefits to having an open claim even without getting payment such as - in this case - the council tax reduction.  I completely agree though, if they're using the MIF and not awarding anything below it and nothing if you go over it, filling in the details every month does seem pointless.

You don't need a UC claim to claim CTR.

However when a CTR claimant is also a UC claimant most councils will use the information on the monthly UC statement to assess entitlement to CTR (in most cases if UC is nil I would expect CTR to be nil too).

If a CTR claimant is not a UC claimant they will be required to provide financial information direct to the local authority. For a self-employed claimant this will probably be based on the last annual accounts unless there is reason to think circumstances have changed,

tifo

calcotti said:

If a CTR claimant is not a UC claimant they will be required to provide financial information direct to the local authority. For a self-employed claimant this will probably be based on the last annual accounts unless there is reason to think circumstances have changed,

I used to do this before I came to UC. However, be careful to check the council figures as my council used to ask for accounts or self employed earnings and expenses every few years or so, some years ago they asked after 3 years and they then took the gross earnings as each yearly income and sent me a large bill by saying my income was higher in previous years than they'd thought! As a self employed business the yearly income is earnings minus expenses but the person(s) dealing with it were so thick they couldn't understand that, they took the gross earnings as net income. Despite a complaint etc I didn't get anywhere as no one seemed to understand that a self employed person can deduct expenses from their earnings to give net income even though it's all in the form they ask to complete.

nicx83

tifo said:

calcotti said:

If a CTR claimant is not a UC claimant they will be required to provide financial information direct to the local authority. For a self-employed claimant this will probably be based on the last annual accounts unless there is reason to think circumstances have changed,

I used to do this before I came to UC. However, be careful to check the council figures as my council used to ask for accounts or self employed earnings and expenses every few years or so, some years ago they asked after 3 years and they then took the gross earnings as each yearly income and sent me a large bill by saying my income was higher in previous years than they'd thought! As a self employed business the yearly income is earnings minus expenses but the person(s) dealing with it were so thick they couldn't understand that, they took the gross earnings as net income. Despite a complaint etc I didn't get anywhere as no one seemed to understand that a self employed person can deduct expenses from their earnings to give net income even though it's all in the form they ask to complete.

Calling the staff thick is harsh they are not trained accountants and some expenses are not allowable for hb/ ctr. You have the right to take the decision to appeal for hb/ valuation office for ctr 

Op local authorities cancel ctr claims when they get a termination file from the date uc ends as they use adverse inference to assume that if you do not qualify for ctr. You have a month from the decision to provide proof of income and they will reassess for you. 

tifo

nicx83 said:

tifo said:

calcotti said:

If a CTR claimant is not a UC claimant they will be required to provide financial information direct to the local authority. For a self-employed claimant this will probably be based on the last annual accounts unless there is reason to think circumstances have changed,

I used to do this before I came to UC. However, be careful to check the council figures as my council used to ask for accounts or self employed earnings and expenses every few years or so, some years ago they asked after 3 years and they then took the gross earnings as each yearly income and sent me a large bill by saying my income was higher in previous years than they'd thought! As a self employed business the yearly income is earnings minus expenses but the person(s) dealing with it were so thick they couldn't understand that, they took the gross earnings as net income. Despite a complaint etc I didn't get anywhere as no one seemed to understand that a self employed person can deduct expenses from their earnings to give net income even though it's all in the form they ask to complete.

Calling the staff thick is harsh they are not trained accountants and some expenses are not allowable for hb/ ctr. You have the right to take the decision to appeal for hb/ valuation office for ctr 

Op local authorities cancel ctr claims when they get a termination file from the date uc ends as they use adverse inference to assume that if you do not qualify for ctr. You have a month from the decision to provide proof of income and they will reassess for you. 

They may not be trained accountants but i'd expect them to be properly trained if they're assessing people's business accounts for benefit purposes. Anyone with minimum training in this area would know that gross earnings minus allowable expenses is income. Not gross earnings. And they had the tax returns too which showed income after expenses but the form to the council showed individual expenses.

If they were to disallow expenses then i'd be told. They simply took the gross earnings as income and all the expenses were purely for business purposes. They just didn't know how to work it out.

This was about 3 years ago before I came to UC.

Anyway, this thread isn't about me, I was just asking the OP to check figures properly and giving my experience.

calcotti

tifo said: They may not be trained accountants but i'd expect them to be properly trained if they're assessing people's business accounts for benefit purposes. 

Not being properly trained is the fault of the employer, it doesn't make the employees 'thick'.

tifo

calcotti said:

tifo said: They may not be trained accountants but i'd expect them to be properly trained if they're assessing people's business accounts for benefit purposes. 

Not being properly trained is the fault of the employer, it doesn't make the employees 'thick'.

Maybe in hindsight wrong use of the word 'thick' but you would expect someone who is meant to assess business accounts that they'd know about gross earnings, expenses and net income.

In the end i'm the one who lost out to the amount of £1,200 which was not due to the council but because the persons dealing with it were adamant their figures are correct.

It's happened before too when a child became a non dependent and was taken off CTS, the calculations they sent me were wrong to the amount of around £300. I worked out the correct amount when they sent me details of what they add/deduct for non dependents. But they wouldn't accept their errors. They're meant to take off the child when they turn 16 or 19 (Oct and Nov) but they were taking them off from the start of the bill in April. Hence I didn't receive the CTS I should have from April to Oct and Nov.

Not to go on about the council but they collected £500 over the amount due many years ago too. That was the CTS (£500 off the yearly bill) but when i fell behind they collected the full CT bill through bailiffs who said "pay us all the money and ask the council for the overpayment". I never got it back. At the time i'd been paying by arrangement and didn't even know they'd sent it for collection when a payment was late.

NedS

Many councils do work on GROSS earnings for benefit purposes - I know my LA will not allow deductions for tax, NI or pension contributions when considering earnings for council tax reduction.

I can see why you may think it would be different for a self employed person, but if those are the rules.

tifo

NedS said:

Many councils do work on GROSS earnings for benefit purposes - I know my LA will not allow deductions for tax, NI or pension contributions when considering earnings for council tax reduction.

I can see why you may think it would be different for a self employed person, but if those are the rules.

I mean actual business expenses, i've never deducted tax and NI from my earnings .... The point is in the past they accepted the accounts as they were, at the times i mention it's because the persons dealing with it didn't appear to know that business expenses can be deducted from business earnings. Those are the rules.

calcotti

tifo said: Those are the rules.

Each council can make their own rules for working age Council Tax Reduction schemes.