Does the bank have to remove subscription's (CPA) if requested?

Heres_the_deal

About 4 weeks ago I noticed two subscription's on my HSBC bank account. No money has been taken from them and I have never made any arrangements for these subscription. The two retailers involved claim to have no knowledge of them. HSBC claim they have no authority to remove them and its down to me. I read on MSE that The Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) has stated banks MUST cancel a CPA when asked.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/recurring-payments/

I have complained to HSBC via Resolver, but they don’t want to engage and have now closed the complaint.

Where do I stand?

DullGreyGuy

Log your complaint with them directly rather than via a third party service and call them Continuous Payment Authorities/CPAs not "subscriptions"... all the bank can do is cancel the CPA, they cannot cancel a subscription on your behalf. Cancelling a payment doesnt cancel a contract as lots of people find when they try not to renew their insurance or dating app etc by cancelling the payment rather than informing the company not to renew.

Heres_the_deal

DullGreyGuy said:

Log your complaint with them directly rather than via a third party service and call them Continuous Payment Authorities/CPAs not "subscriptions"... all the bank can do is cancel the CPA, they cannot cancel a subscription on your behalf. Cancelling a payment doesnt cancel a contract as lots of people find when they try not to renew their insurance or dating app etc by cancelling the payment rather than informing the company not to renew.

Could you clarify that for me. I have requested HSBC cancel both Recurring Transactions / subscriptions. I own no money to or have any dealings with the two retailers.

All HSBC say is ‘The retailers are responsible for setting up the payments and in these instances both of the companies have set the payments as subscriptions.’

So what exactly do I need to ask HSBC do?

sourcrates

It`s not the banks issue, a subscription must be cancelled with the beneficiary, not the bank its subscribed from.

You say the retailers involved deny all knowledge, then I suggest sending a formal complaint to each of them, take a screenshot of their entry on your bank account, and tell them to deal with it/remove/cancel it forthwith.

They have 12 weeks to issue you a final response, after which time you can take it to the FOS if you remain unhappy.

molerat

In answer to the question, yes, the bank must cancel the authority if asked

https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-authorities-it-your-right-cancel

https://www.stepchange.org/debt-info/your-rights/cancelling-recurring-payments-or-cpa.aspx

Complaint to the bank if they fail to do so.

But you should be able to stop it yourself

https://www.hsbc.co.uk/help/banking-made-easy/how-to-view-subscriptions/

Strange that HSBC are denying responsibility as the link above gives a number to call to do just that !

Heres_the_deal

molerat said:

In answer to the question, yes, the bank must cancel the authority if asked

https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-authorities-it-your-right-cancel

https://www.stepchange.org/debt-info/your-rights/cancelling-recurring-payments-or-cpa.aspx

Complaint to the bank if they fail to do so.

But you should be able to stop it yourself

https://www.hsbc.co.uk/help/banking-made-easy/how-to-view-subscriptions/

Strange that HSBC are denying responsibility as the link above gives a number to call to do just that !

Thank you, I was beginning to think I had got caught up in semantics over the meaning of CPA and Subscription.

I only noticed the subscriptions after my HSBC app was updated. I did manage to stop one subscription using the app, but the remaining one is more problematic as I keep receiving the message ‘unable to block, please try again’.

One of the subscriptions is with the Spanish eBay courier agent ‘Packlink’. I use them all the time with my other bank account and that has no subscription with them, I’ve only used my HSBC debit card with Packlink a few times. The other subscription is with my old landlord who I used to pay rent via my debit card. They [landlord] have no clue about it as I’ve never owed them rent. They have confirmed this to me in writing.

I’m convinced it is an HSBC error.

All I want is to block any payments that ‘may’ be paid. I’m not trying to get anything removed as I have no contract or own any money to either of them.

HSBC are unable to understand my request, so as such it looks like it will be going to the Ombudsman.

DullGreyGuy

Heres_the_deal said:

molerat said:

In answer to the question, yes, the bank must cancel the authority if asked

https://www.fca.org.uk/news/news-stories/continuous-payment-authorities-it-your-right-cancel

https://www.stepchange.org/debt-info/your-rights/cancelling-recurring-payments-or-cpa.aspx

Complaint to the bank if they fail to do so.

But you should be able to stop it yourself

https://www.hsbc.co.uk/help/banking-made-easy/how-to-view-subscriptions/

Strange that HSBC are denying responsibility as the link above gives a number to call to do just that !

Thank you, I was beginning to think I had got caught up in semantics over the meaning of CPA and Subscription.

I only noticed the subscriptions after my HSBC app was updated. I did manage to stop one subscription using the app, but the remaining one is more problematic as I keep receiving the message ‘unable to block, please try again’.

One of the subscriptions is with the Spanish eBay courier agent ‘Packlink’. I use them all the time with my other bank account and that has no subscription with them, I’ve only used my HSBC debit card with Packlink a few times. The other subscription is with my old landlord who I used to pay rent via my debit card. They [landlord] have no clue about it as I’ve never owed them rent. They have confirmed this to me in writing.

I’m convinced it is an HSBC error.

All I want is to block any payments that ‘may’ be paid. I’m not trying to get anything removed as I have no contract or own any money to either of them.

HSBC are unable to understand my request, so as such it looks like it will be going to the Ombudsman.

Unfortunately marketing departments writing websites try to use plain english so people can understand what is meant but this often actually results in technically wrong information being posted or highly confusing information (eg "income protection insurance" can be PPI/ASU or PHI... two very different products legally and in practice)

Whilst I appreciate that HSBC are calling them "subscriptions" it is a poor term to use and could result in a complaint being rejected at a later date because HSBC is only in control of the payment authorisation and not aspect of the subscription/service/contract associated with it.

Having cancelled one CPA online you just need to raise the issue with HSBC again as a complaint that you've been unable to self-serve online and their call centre have refused to do it.

sourcrates said:

It`s not the banks issue, a subscription must be cancelled with the beneficiary, not the bank its subscribed from.

The Financial Conduct Authority disagrees with you.

penners324

Probably hsbc systems picking up a previously regularly paid debit card payment. HSBC's systems won't be able to tell if it's a CPA.

DullGreyGuy

penners324 said:

Probably hsbc systems picking up a previously regularly paid debit card payment. HSBC's systems won't be able to tell if it's a CPA.

I'm happy to stand corrected but I understood all CPAs had a different merchant code that identified them as a CPA - this is in part how CPA payments dont trigger 3D secure or the higher fees for not having expiry date, CCV etc 

Heres_the_deal

penners324 said:

Probably hsbc systems picking up a previously regularly paid debit card payment. HSBC's systems won't be able to tell if it's a CPA.

Having zero knowledge of the banking system, it was the only way I could think these CPAs were placed on my account. If genuine, Packlink being a Spanish company raises the ease with which a retailer can claim a verbal  agreement was in place for a CPA and start debiting a persons account. From reading up on these agreements, it appears nothing in writing is required between retailer and customer (although I stand corrected).

Its worth noting that whilst  (if you can) stop payment on a CPA using the HSBC banking app, it only lasts for 13 months. So its not the same as requesting the bank stop payments permanently.

DullGreyGuy

Heres_the_deal said:

penners324 said:

Probably hsbc systems picking up a previously regularly paid debit card payment. HSBC's systems won't be able to tell if it's a CPA.

Having zero knowledge of the banking system, it was the only way I could think these CPAs were placed on my account. If genuine, Packlink being a Spanish company raises the ease with which a retailer can claim a verbal  agreement was in place for a CPA and start debiting a persons account. From reading up on these agreements, it appears nothing in writing is required between retailer and customer (although I stand corrected).

My knowledge comes from being on the merchant side but from insurance companies who obviously heavily use CPAs in relation to monthly payments and autorenewal of policies. That said, in recent years havent been dealing with consumer insurance and those paying a $3.5bn reinsurance policy dont tend to make their quarterly payments by CPA.

CPAs have been too easy to set up especially as they dont come with the same level of protection that DDs do. The card updater service that was setup by the card networks a good few years ago was intended in part to help address this because of the third response from it - dont attempt payment with a code to explain why (which includes for example Visa code 51 - The recurring transaction should be stopped at the card holder level.)

Consent is required but as we all know people zone out when the long legal bit is read out or dont bother reading the T&Cs before clicking the I Agree button... last insurer website I did had just over an A4 page at Ariel 11 of declarations the user had to read and click the I Agree button before they were taken to the payment screen (which inc the CPA element) and average time on that page, including load time, was circa 3 seconds.