Driven to Frustration by DWP - Universal Credit/illness and Fit notes - does anyone have any advice?

InLimboInLondon

Hi all,

I'm posting as I've been struggling with the DWP for weeks now, and they are proving beyond useless in dealing with an payment issue, which they have now turned into a far bigger issue.

Backstory: I have been claiming UC since July 2021 as a self-employed person, and MIF came into effect around October 2021 when I was judged gainfully self employed.  However, this was set at 30 hours per week due to a disclosed health condition which was accepted. I felt 30 hours was realistic at the time and I could manage that amount of work.

For the last few months I have become increasingly unwell and can not currently sit at a computer for more than 30 minutes at a time most days due to dizziness and fatigue. My work is entirely computer based. I would not currently be able to work any job that requires me to work outside of the home.  

My GP gave me a fit note recommending I work no more than 20 hours a week at the start of September.  I advised DWP straight away and gave them the details of the fit note. They did not at that time provide any way for me to upload the fit note to them despite me requesting to be able to send them the copy so they could see the notes and recommendation.

I reported my income and expenditure as usual, and I realised when I got my statement through for work carried out in September, that they had not applied the fit note, and so I had been underpaid (I earned around £900), the statement was as per my old MIF of 30 hrs a week.

Worse than that, becuase the fit note ran out (as far as they were concerned), they changed the MIF to the standard 35 hours a week, which it had never ever been.

Later the same day, I uploaded the new fit note which applied from 30th September, which says I should not be working at all.  I have provided them this, they say they have accepted it, but are still saying the MIF is 35 hours a week.

Because I was getting nowhere with the online journal, my questions were being ignored, and an irritating person at my local job centre who refuses to put his name just keeps explaining the basics of UC for self employed.  I was told to go to the office and sort it out myself with them.  I've explained I'm not currently well enough to go down there and have this same argument with them in person.  On Thursday I finally spoke to a human on the main helpline number, who appeared to understand what I was saying, but it's ended up in the same circular route of person in St Austell (who is apparently my contact), and someone at local job centre who refuses to name themselves and refuse to answer the questions I've asked, but has now decided I need to have a work capability assessment to reduce the 35 hours MIF that's been put in place for no apparent reason.

I'm left feeling like I should have tried to soldier on even though I cannot earn the amount of money they say I should be earning at the original MIF due to my health situation, and now I'm going to be even worse off (at a time when things are hard enough). All because I submitted a fit note in the first place.  

I have no objection in principle to undergoing a work capability assessment, but the fact remains that I currently have not been able to pay rent in two months, council tax is in arrears, as is water bill, and I'm just managing to eat and feed my two cats (who ironically I adopted to try and help with my health situation - which they have, massively. My blood pressure and heart rate decreased rapidly within a few days of them coming to live with me.)

I'm going to talk to Citizens Advice and use the UC complaints procedure, but has anyone else been in this kind of frustration trying to deal with Universal Credit as a self-employed person subject to the minimum income floor and ill health? I can't be the only person who's self-employed and become ill, surely!

It feels like even a few years in, job centre staff have literally no idea how to deal with UC and self employed people... I've even done the calculations for them, they still just keep actively ignoring my question/issue, and answer questions I haven't asked.  Any advice would be gratefully received!

huckster

You could report a change of circumstances under work and earnings, reporting the self-employment again. This would bring up a verify self-employment to-do on your claim, which the Job Centre would have to deal with, by booking you a 60-minute Gateway Intervention appointment at the Job Centre.  Unfortunately, you would have to attend the Job  Centre and there is no alternative as it cannot be done by phone call.  No further UC statements would be issued until this process is completed.

And you need to report the fit notes on your claim. Click on report a change of circs and complete the health section.  And take the fit notes to the Job Centre, when you attend an appointment.

If you have a health condition that is preventing, you from working for an extended period, the Job Centre would have a responsibility to review your claim. Under UC terms for self-employment, for short term health issues, the self-employed person is supposed to put money to one side to help them through the period.  Where the health issue is longer term, the Job Centre have two options.  They can find that you are not currently gainfully self-employed, as you are not able to currently continue the self-employed work (a letter from your GP explaining would help) or they could temporarily reduce the MIF for a period.  UC guidance that the Job Centre have available to them has examples of actions that could be taken, where a self-employed person due to health is not able to work or is restricted.

tomtom256

MIF has already been reduced to take into account your health contiions.
They may not reduce it further, without a work capability assessment and a decision being made, however, they could reduce it further, if they deeed it appropriate, but it would be down to the work coach you see, bare in mind that once you have re-declared your self-employment and/or declared you cannot work, your payments will be blocked until you have attended a further gateway intervention and a new decision has been made, so if you go down that route, be careful when you report the change.

InLimboInLondon

Thank you.  Unfortunately I don't think that's going to work judging from the phone call I've just had.  They've just told me that they don't care about the sick note (effectively) - as you say, I am judged to be able to pay myself sick pay, which is utterly ridiculous for someone in a micro-business; it's not a hobby, I don't want to say what I do as it will out who I am as my main business is so incredibly niche, and I am known for it; I was until the health issues, also doing virtual assistant / PA kind of work to max my income). So lesson for others reading this, there is absolutely zero point submitting fit notes/sick notes and they may leave you in a worse position.  

Apparently the person who did my claim originally should have sent me for work capability assessment, and this will now be done as what is wrong with me is a long term issue and not likely to improve dramatically any time soon. I'm now being sent for work capability assessment, but it could take months to happen, and until then I'm now going to be judged as earning £1,400 ish a month.  On a good month when I could sit up all day I've earned that, but it's rare.

So, I guess the only option is to go and find a job, any job that earns enough to get me off Universal Credit, then I'll end up getting fired for not actually being able to do said job.  Benefits only seem to work for people who don't want to work or literally can't work.  Not for people who try their absolute best to do what they can do.

Sorry, this turned into a rant, but I'm genuinely not seeing how I'm going to be able to survive until they do this work capability assessment. Which judging from what i've read will come out saying I can work because I don't tick enough off the right boxes. 

NedS

InLimboInLondon said:

Thank you.  Unfortunately I don't think that's going to work judging from the phone call I've just had.  They've just told me that they don't care about the sick note (effectively) - as you say, I am judged to be able to pay myself sick pay, which is utterly ridiculous for someone in a micro-business; it's not a hobby, I don't want to say what I do as it will out who I am as my main business is so incredibly niche, and I am known for it; I was until the health issues, also doing virtual assistant / PA kind of work to max my income). So lesson for others reading this, there is absolutely zero point submitting fit notes/sick notes and they may leave you in a worse position.  

As mentioned above, unfortunately this is one of the downsides to self-employment - your business is expected to cover your short term sick needs. If the business is unable to do this, then you may need to assess if it is viable in the longer term. If your health condition is such that you are unlikely to be able to return to work for the business, and the business is unable to continue without you (is the business able to employ someone to cover you in the short term?), then you may need to consider winding up the business.

poppy12345

If you are also earning more than 16xNMW/week then unless you're receiving either PIP or DLA then you can't be referred for a work capability assessment.

InLimboInLondon

poppy12345 said:

If you are also earning more than 16xNMW/week then unless you're receiving either PIP or DLA then you can't be referred for a work capability assessment.

sorry what does 16xNMW/week mean?

InLimboInLondon

NedS said:

InLimboInLondon said:

Thank you.  Unfortunately I don't think that's going to work judging from the phone call I've just had.  They've just told me that they don't care about the sick note (effectively) - as you say, I am judged to be able to pay myself sick pay, which is utterly ridiculous for someone in a micro-business; it's not a hobby, I don't want to say what I do as it will out who I am as my main business is so incredibly niche, and I am known for it; I was until the health issues, also doing virtual assistant / PA kind of work to max my income). So lesson for others reading this, there is absolutely zero point submitting fit notes/sick notes and they may leave you in a worse position.  

As mentioned above, unfortunately this is one of the downsides to self-employment - your business is expected to cover your short term sick needs. If the business is unable to do this, then you may need to assess if it is viable in the longer term. If your health condition is such that you are unlikely to be able to return to work for the business, and the business is unable to continue without you (is the business able to employ someone to cover you in the short term?), then you may need to consider winding up the business.

No, no one can cover me, I'm literally one of only two people in the UK who can do what I do.

NedS

InLimboInLondon said:

poppy12345 said:

If you are also earning more than 16xNMW/week then unless you're receiving either PIP or DLA then you can't be referred for a work capability assessment.

sorry what does 16xNMW/week mean?

It means you are earning the equivalent of working 16 hours/week at National Minimum Wage

poppy12345

NedS said:

InLimboInLondon said:

poppy12345 said:

If you are also earning more than 16xNMW/week then unless you're receiving either PIP or DLA then you can't be referred for a work capability assessment.

sorry what does 16xNMW/week mean?

It means you are earning the equivalent of working 16 hours/week at National Minimum Wage

Yes, if you're earning more than this you can't be referred for the WCA.

huckster

Thought I would copy over relevant parts of the advice for decision makers (DM) that is available on the Gov.uk website.

If the sickness cannot be considered a "minor" and the self-employed claimant is not able to continue to earn from self-employed work for an extended period of time, then the guidance allows for review.   The Job Centre should not be preventing a review and if the Job Centre Work Coaches decision is still gainfull self-employment with the current MIF to apply, a further review by another Work Coach can be requested and then mandatory reconsideration of the decision can be applied for.


ADM Chapter H4: Earned income - self-employed earnings (publishing.service.gov.uk)


Businesses receiving little or no income H4054

A claimant who has already been determined to be gainfully S/E may experience times where their business is not generating much by way of an income. However, this does not mean that they are no longer gainfully S/E for the purposes of UC.

H4055 In order to determine if a claimant is still gainfully S/E, the DM should consider
 1. if there is a reasonable prospect of work in the near future
 and 2. if the business is a going concern and regarded as such by
 2.1 the person
or 2.2 the business’s bankers
 or 2.3 any creditors
 or 2.4 others and 3. if the person is genuinely available for and actively seeking alternative work
 and 4. if the person hopes or intends to restart work in the business when economic conditions improve
 and 5. if the person is undertaking any activities in connection with the self-employment
 and 6. if there is work in the pipeline
 and 7. if the person is regarded as S/E by HMRC
 and 8. if the person claims to be anxious for work in the trade, profession or vocation. Is the person making it known that the business can take on work?
 For example, 8.1 by advertising
 or 8.2 by visiting potential customers
and 9. if the interruption in question is part of the normal pattern of the 9.1 person’s work
 or 9.2 work that the person is seeking. Not all of these questions will be relevant to whether a person is still gainfully S/E.

 It will depend on the facts of the particular case.

Sickness H4057

 A S/E claimant will experience occasional minor illnesses like anyone else.

The DM should regard periods of minor illness as part of the normal pattern of self-employment.

 Example Reuben performs as an Elvis Presley tribute act. He is registered with a number of entertainment websites and also has several pubs and restaurants who pass on work and customer recommendations. Reuben’s work tends to fuctuate, with peaks in the summer season and around Christmas when he supplements his income, as a singing Father Christmas in the local shopping centre. Reuben works on average 19 hours per week and earns around £210. In December, Reuben experiences back pains and has to stop working for a brief period. Reuben spends the majority of his time working as an Elvis tribute act and has no other income, so the DM determines this is his main employment. Reuben is engaged in a proftable vocation. He has clients, but not an employer. The DM determines that Reuben’s income is S/E income. Reuben is engaged in work and takes steps to maintain a signifcant amount of work in the pipeline, actively promoting his business through the internet and asking his clients to provide recommendations. He also has a business plan that accommodates the changing demand for his services throughout the year. The DM determines that the work is organised, developed, regular and carried out in expectation of proft. The DM considers that Reuben has met all parts of the gainful self-employment tests.

Although Reuben is unwell, this period of sickness is minor and temporary and the DM regards this as part of the normal pattern of self-employmen